Mamiya 6 Automatic with wind problem

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LeGrandeW

LeGrandeW
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Hi to all,

I recently purchased a Mamiya 6 Automatic and although it takes nice sharp pictures, the frames overlap slightly on most frames. Seems to be inconsistant in that regard and the most anoying thing is it makes it impossible for me to scan the negatives on my Canoscan 8400F!!

Is this something characteristic of this camera or can it be fixed? I would appreciate any help the forum can offer here.

Also, does anyone have a .pdf copy of the owners manual?

Thank's,

LeGrande
 
chippy said:
its a fairly typical problem with the old 120 cameras that have auto frame counters, they work by gears that (some others work on a counter capstan that is still accurate i.e. Welta Perfekta) ,more or less, count the revolutions of the spool. In the old days when the backing paper of the film was thicker that worked just fine but todays film backing is thiner so it causes those camera with this type of system to overlap frames quite often.

searching through the forum you should come across a number of remedies (most often associated with Super Ikonta models) people use. they all work on the same principle , but basically adding extra leader to the film backing before loading or winding some tape around a spool and then cutting the slots for the film leader to slot into are among the most common solutions; the idea is to make up for the fact the film backing is thinner now by adding extra
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking along that line but tried to make the spool diameter bigger by using some cereal box cardboard to wrap around once after securing in the spool slot along with the film leader. That helped but not enough. My other thought was to disable the counter/cocking mechanism and just use the old red window like the old days. If I do that I won't mention it on the forum and offend the more sensitive collector types.

LeGrande
 
The "add leader to the film" or "thicken the spool" remedies don't fix the whole problem. Using these two remedies get the film to land on the 1st frame OK but, the following frames still land further and further behind as I've discovered. Even my wife predicted this and she is not as good as I am at visualizing mechanical stuff. After some careful thought I had to agree with her that this will never work. I HAVE concluded disabling/messing with the mechanics is unnecessary cuz I can cover the lens and shoot off the shutter, then advance to the next number, but then I"m back to double exposures etc. because of my bad short term memory.
 
I can only think people are repeating an urban legend on this film leader story. Think of this example: I have 3' stride (I'm the old thicker film in this example). My wife has 2 1/2' stride because of her stubby legs but I love her non-the-less. We are both going to walk the length of the football field starting at one goal line. I calculate to give her a head start so she and I land on the goal line at the same time as we start at the very end of the field (head start = added leader). But from then on I still have 3' steps (because of my thicker film backing) and she, because of her newer thinner film backing still has 2 1/2' strides (diameter of the spool increases less with each wind). Well, after we each have taken 10 steps she has advanced 25 yds and I 30'. After 10 more strides I'm now 60 yds and she 50 etc. etc.

The ONLY way to make this work is if I run extra backing the complete length of the film so that it resulted in being as thick as the original film. The thicker film increases the diameter of spool at a faster rate no matter how long the leader is or beginning diameter of the spool.

I took a spool of B&W film to test over and over and noticed after increasing the diameter of my spool with the cardboard that each sequential wind still landed evermore behind the previous wind.
 
The winding mechanisms on Automat models are a real PITA to work with, they are very very difficult if damaged. Mamiya 6 cameras are really worth it, I own one and they have a very clever design but, as others already mentioned, most automatic advance cameras have in this system its weakest point. I am not sure if, in your case, it is actually due to the paper backing or the advance system.
 
Get an Iskra for a while... everything else will seem good after the way the Iskra's spacing (generous description) works! 😛
 
LeGrandeW said:
The ONLY way to make this work is if I run extra backing the complete length of the film so that it resulted in being as thick as the original film. The thicker film increases the diameter of spool at a faster rate no matter how long the leader is or beginning diameter of the spool.

I took a spool of B&W film to test over and over and noticed after increasing the diameter of my spool with the cardboard that each sequential wind still landed evermore behind the previous wind.
Click to expand...

If the wind from one frame to the next is based on a certain number of revolutions of the spool, and you increase the outer circumference of the spool with cardboard or whatever, more film length will be taken up by the spool per wind. The amount of extra length per frame is the difference between the original circumference and the circumference with cardboard. The frame spacing will vary within a range unless you do as you say and increase the thickness of the film.

I think that makes sense..
 
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Keith said:
Get an Iskra for a while... everything else will seem good after the way the Iskra's spacing (generous description) works! 😛
Click to expand...

Personally, I have had quite bad experiences from the two Iskras I have owned, not actually related with the frame spacing but with the automatic film advance system being kaput, mostly like his far cousin the Super Isolette - but I also own three of the latter and only one has problems with the film advance system and I keep it for spares (but I plan to use it by adding a red window in the back, I just have to figure out how would be best to do). My Mamiya-6 has never failed yet (and I hope it won't!)
 
Dump the count/stop mechanism.. Use red window

Dump the count/stop mechanism.. Use red window

To hell with the Purists. Both of my Automatic Mam Sixes got the "lose the film count/stop mechanism" fix shortly after acquisition.

I can find nobody who will work on the count/stop mechanisms and guarantee a fix. Not even Certo 6 and he's very clear about that. I've used the man 5 times with excellent results. One of his fixes was on a Mamiya 6 bellows replacement.

One of my automatics had the spacing problem. The other had been dropped on the wind-on knob.

You can gingerly remove the gears for the film count/stop and still retain the automatic shutter cocking/double shot prevention. As you know you can manually override the double shot prevention.

The ruby window never fails and to the degree you can stop yourself, the frame spacing is always correct.

I Have a loverly Mamiya 6 Automatic??? that works just fine.

When you see the film count/stop gearing you will absolutely SHUTTER!!! (pun intended)
 
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I was finally able to get the frames to land on the numbers satisfactorily after doubling up on the thickness of the cardboard I was using to increase spool diameter! Not sure I want to have to bother making these adapters all the time but it does work as advertised.

One problem still is trying to find where to land the START line. I found it seems to work to close the door after landing it in the center of the frame window. I wasted two or three rolls of film experimenting with everything. At least I will have spaces between frames now.

A big thank-you to you all for your replies!
 
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