Merelyok
Well-known
Hi all,
I'm been using a mix of high-speed B&W film (Tri-X, neopan 400 etc) and i've been using developers such as HC-110 (sol. B, mostly), D76 and Ilford Perceptol to develop. HC-110 and D76 work rather well but i'm still missing that bit of visible grain and dark, dark blacks that i see some others getting.
Could it be my developing? I usually develop at 68C, with initial agitation of 1 min (inversion with a light twist) and then 3 inversions for every minute thereafter.
I've tried stand developing perceptol 1:3 for 1 hour as well with ok results. Below are a few examples.
Tri-X (rated at asa 800), Perceptol 1:3, Stand developed 1hr
Ilford Pan 400, Perceptol 1:3, Stand developed 1hr
Neopan 1600, D76 1:1
Tri-X pushed to 1600, D76 1:1
Neopan 400, HC-110B
The only combination i'm seeing with alittle bit of grain is Tri-x pushed to 1600 in D76..i still would like to squeeze abit more grain out of it. Any idea if i should try another developer or agitate more?
Thanks for any suggestions..
I'm been using a mix of high-speed B&W film (Tri-X, neopan 400 etc) and i've been using developers such as HC-110 (sol. B, mostly), D76 and Ilford Perceptol to develop. HC-110 and D76 work rather well but i'm still missing that bit of visible grain and dark, dark blacks that i see some others getting.
Could it be my developing? I usually develop at 68C, with initial agitation of 1 min (inversion with a light twist) and then 3 inversions for every minute thereafter.
I've tried stand developing perceptol 1:3 for 1 hour as well with ok results. Below are a few examples.
Tri-X (rated at asa 800), Perceptol 1:3, Stand developed 1hr
Ilford Pan 400, Perceptol 1:3, Stand developed 1hr
Neopan 1600, D76 1:1
Tri-X pushed to 1600, D76 1:1
Neopan 400, HC-110B
The only combination i'm seeing with alittle bit of grain is Tri-x pushed to 1600 in D76..i still would like to squeeze abit more grain out of it. Any idea if i should try another developer or agitate more?
Thanks for any suggestions..
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
A classic combination for grainy but sharp pictures is Tri-X and Rodinal.
I have gotten pronounced grain with Neopan 1600 @ 1600 developed in Microphen.
More agitation yields more grain, as does longer development. But it can also block the highlights.
Higher developer temperature increases grain.
Diluting D-76 or Microdol to 1:3 will keep the sulfite from reducing the grain size. Development times are much longer, but the picture will be sharp, due to sharply rendered grain outlines. Be sure to use at least 125ml of stock solution. You will need a 16oz tank to include enough stock solution.
But cut to the chase: try Rodinal!
I have gotten pronounced grain with Neopan 1600 @ 1600 developed in Microphen.
More agitation yields more grain, as does longer development. But it can also block the highlights.
Higher developer temperature increases grain.
Diluting D-76 or Microdol to 1:3 will keep the sulfite from reducing the grain size. Development times are much longer, but the picture will be sharp, due to sharply rendered grain outlines. Be sure to use at least 125ml of stock solution. You will need a 16oz tank to include enough stock solution.
But cut to the chase: try Rodinal!
Merelyok
Well-known
I knew someone would say Rodinal )):
Thanks Rob for the suggestions. I've tried stronger agitation and like you said, the highlights were horribly blocked..The 1:3 D76 seems interesting (20 mins of (active) developing though!)
Unfortunately i can't get Rodinal locally. I'll have to order online. I'm tempted to try some paper developer like Dektol though : P
Thanks Rob for the suggestions. I've tried stronger agitation and like you said, the highlights were horribly blocked..The 1:3 D76 seems interesting (20 mins of (active) developing though!)
Unfortunately i can't get Rodinal locally. I'll have to order online. I'm tempted to try some paper developer like Dektol though : P
raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
merelyok,
This is most interesting.
I have the opposite problem of yours, i have too much grain in our tropical Singapore.
My HC-110B with Legacy Pro (Fuji Neopan 400) is still too grainy. And I am resorting to Tri-X with HC110B.
This what I found, off course, since this photography and film development, everybody's opinion count or not:
* The motherhood is that higher ISO produces larger grain.
* Water temperature affects grain. (31C increases grain size)
* The above is balanced against development time, the longer it takes, the more grainy it becomes.
* Not all developers are the same. I use Rodinal with some films okay (Ilford XP-2) and some films are not okay. (Btw, I bought it from japanexposures.com, while it it expensive, per development is very cheap)
* If you do scanning, the Unsharp mask affects grains. The sharper the setting the higher the grain setting.
* Lastly, the size of the prints matter. At 4x6, I think is not too discernable unlike say 100% crop.
Here are some of my examples, these are 100% crop of a much larger picture.
(read the file description)
dev-25-LegacyPro-Rodinal-Stand-ei200-room.jpg Room Temp
dev-26-LegacyPro-Rodinal-Nonstand-room.jpg Room Temp
dev-37-legacy400-hc110-4.5min-dilutionh-room.jpg Room Temp
dev-44-legacypro-hc110-DilutionBcold-5min.jpg Cold
dev-59-delta3200-d76-11min-iso3200-greenfilter-cold.jpg Cold
dev-75-legacypro400-hc110-H-10mins-ei640.jpg Cold
dev-58-xp2-fullstand-ei250.jpg Room Temp
raytoei
ps. you must tell me how you tamed Legacy Pro 400
pps. also see this thread on Water Bath and Grain.
This is most interesting.
I have the opposite problem of yours, i have too much grain in our tropical Singapore.
My HC-110B with Legacy Pro (Fuji Neopan 400) is still too grainy. And I am resorting to Tri-X with HC110B.
This what I found, off course, since this photography and film development, everybody's opinion count or not:
* The motherhood is that higher ISO produces larger grain.
* Water temperature affects grain. (31C increases grain size)
* The above is balanced against development time, the longer it takes, the more grainy it becomes.
* Not all developers are the same. I use Rodinal with some films okay (Ilford XP-2) and some films are not okay. (Btw, I bought it from japanexposures.com, while it it expensive, per development is very cheap)
* If you do scanning, the Unsharp mask affects grains. The sharper the setting the higher the grain setting.
* Lastly, the size of the prints matter. At 4x6, I think is not too discernable unlike say 100% crop.
Here are some of my examples, these are 100% crop of a much larger picture.
(read the file description)
dev-25-LegacyPro-Rodinal-Stand-ei200-room.jpg Room Temp
dev-26-LegacyPro-Rodinal-Nonstand-room.jpg Room Temp
dev-37-legacy400-hc110-4.5min-dilutionh-room.jpg Room Temp
dev-44-legacypro-hc110-DilutionBcold-5min.jpg Cold
dev-59-delta3200-d76-11min-iso3200-greenfilter-cold.jpg Cold
dev-75-legacypro400-hc110-H-10mins-ei640.jpg Cold
dev-58-xp2-fullstand-ei250.jpg Room Temp
raytoei
ps. you must tell me how you tamed Legacy Pro 400
pps. also see this thread on Water Bath and Grain.
Last edited:
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
It's a pity you can't get Rodinal where you are because it's a suggestion that will echo through this thread I suspect. I've been developing almost everything in Rodinal 1+100 lately and I'm hooked ... I haven't used my previously favoured Xtol for ages!
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
If it's grain you're after, you could try a pyro formula.
Isn't XP-2 a C41 process film, raytoei?
Isn't XP-2 a C41 process film, raytoei?
raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
payasam,
Yeah it is. I find that it works for me consistently for Rodinal Stand development. Although the lack of grain could be due to the ei of 250.
raytoei
Yeah it is. I find that it works for me consistently for Rodinal Stand development. Although the lack of grain could be due to the ei of 250.
raytoei
Merelyok
Well-known
Hi Raytoei!
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I suspect my Neopan 400 (Legacy Pro) seems to be less grainy as the example i showed was from a 120mm roll. Perhaps you could try Neopan 400 in Ilfotec DD-X, i've found that to be particularly smooth, albeit a rather expensive way to go about your development.
Keith, it is indeed a pity...i guess i'll have to order it online if i really wanna try it.
Payasam, thanks for the suggestion, i'll read up on pyro development!
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I suspect my Neopan 400 (Legacy Pro) seems to be less grainy as the example i showed was from a 120mm roll. Perhaps you could try Neopan 400 in Ilfotec DD-X, i've found that to be particularly smooth, albeit a rather expensive way to go about your development.
Keith, it is indeed a pity...i guess i'll have to order it online if i really wanna try it.
Payasam, thanks for the suggestion, i'll read up on pyro development!
nightfly
Well-known
If you can't get Rodinal try Dektol. I love grain and have used both. Rodinal has better tonality to my eyes but Dektol isn't bad. Overexposing and overdeveloping at high temperatures will increase grain. I think Daido Moriyama uses D-76 at high temperatures and he is a big fan of grain so you might google around and find out his recipe.
Here are a few samples of Dektol developed Tri-X (grain not as apparent in small jpegs for web):
Here are a few samples of Dektol developed Tri-X (grain not as apparent in small jpegs for web):
lawrence
Veteran
HP5 is grainier than Tri-X or Neopan 400 but if you want 'real' grain try TMZ or Delta 3200 (here's an example of the Delta):
raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
lawrence, nice shot..
Tim Gray
Well-known
Higher ISO is the way to bigger grain. Or cropping.
Besides that, pushing does increase grain, but not to the extent of a higher speed film in my experience.
A smaller effect is developer choice. Try Rodinal or higher dilutions of your developer. Look for 'acutance developers'.
'Dark dark blacks' shouldn't be a problem with any developer or negative film. Simply adjust levels or enlarger exposure time so you get the dark blacks you want. At that point, look at your highlights - if they are too dark, then you need to adjust the contrast. Use a higher grade of paper/levels in photoshop, or adjust your development time to be longer. Pushing will increase contrast and reduce shadow detail - maybe this is what you mean.
I say keep your agitation style consistent - instead increase time.
Besides that, pushing does increase grain, but not to the extent of a higher speed film in my experience.
A smaller effect is developer choice. Try Rodinal or higher dilutions of your developer. Look for 'acutance developers'.
'Dark dark blacks' shouldn't be a problem with any developer or negative film. Simply adjust levels or enlarger exposure time so you get the dark blacks you want. At that point, look at your highlights - if they are too dark, then you need to adjust the contrast. Use a higher grade of paper/levels in photoshop, or adjust your development time to be longer. Pushing will increase contrast and reduce shadow detail - maybe this is what you mean.
I say keep your agitation style consistent - instead increase time.
nightfly
Well-known
As you can see grain differs. The newer emulsions like TMZ and Delta 3200 have a much different look than Tri-X and Neopan. A lot more regular and sandpapery.
Look at the work of people who use grain- Ralph Gibson, Daido Moriyama etc. They both use the same film, Tri-X mostly and sometimes Neopan 400 and 1600, but achieve different looks by how they treat it. Gibson does Rodinal 1:25 for 11 minutes (rather than the recommended 7 or so) and overexposes. Negs get really thick and dark but still workable. Moriyama uses D-76 at high temps.
Also darkroom printing usually gives you a more grainy result than scanning and different scanners and light sources reveal grain differently.
It's going to be tough to get grain in medium format no matter what you do. On the other hand half frame images get really grainy really fast due to more enlargement. Check out Moriyama's New York 1971 book for some great half frame grain.
Look at the work of people who use grain- Ralph Gibson, Daido Moriyama etc. They both use the same film, Tri-X mostly and sometimes Neopan 400 and 1600, but achieve different looks by how they treat it. Gibson does Rodinal 1:25 for 11 minutes (rather than the recommended 7 or so) and overexposes. Negs get really thick and dark but still workable. Moriyama uses D-76 at high temps.
Also darkroom printing usually gives you a more grainy result than scanning and different scanners and light sources reveal grain differently.
It's going to be tough to get grain in medium format no matter what you do. On the other hand half frame images get really grainy really fast due to more enlargement. Check out Moriyama's New York 1971 book for some great half frame grain.
Merelyok
Well-known
Nightfly, i love the grain that your first shot shows, and yes, it has some sort of a Moriyama vibe about it. I'm gonna try some dektol real soon after my Perceptol and Microphen runs out. Can't wait!
Lawrence, thanks for that shot. I don't remb Delta 3200 to be that grainy but there are so many variables to take into account i don't even know where to start!
Tim, noted, I'm gonna develop some Tri-X 400 rated 320 in Perceptol 1:3 to increase developing time (about 15mins iirc) with some fairly rigourous agitation and i'll post the results here.
Lawrence, thanks for that shot. I don't remb Delta 3200 to be that grainy but there are so many variables to take into account i don't even know where to start!
Tim, noted, I'm gonna develop some Tri-X 400 rated 320 in Perceptol 1:3 to increase developing time (about 15mins iirc) with some fairly rigourous agitation and i'll post the results here.
Merelyok
Well-known
Alrighty...here are the Tri-X perceptol results..
While the pictures were anything but grainy, i've found the combination to be particularly good in retaining details in the shadow area with good sharpness as well. Quite good all in all (although anything but grainy).
While the pictures were anything but grainy, i've found the combination to be particularly good in retaining details in the shadow area with good sharpness as well. Quite good all in all (although anything but grainy).
raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
Nightfly, thanks to the reference on Ralph Gibson.
Found this link here.
Quote:
Chris/Larry: Your work really takes advantage of the 35mm film dynamic range, with its characteristic graininess and tonality. How has the changing of materials, the newer films with finer grain, effected you? Have you pretty much stayed with the one film and developer combination?
Ralph: I’ve used Rodinal since 1961. I use Tri-x almost exclusively but occasionally, sometimes I get in the mood to use Fuji 400. But either one is the same to me. And for my night work, I’ve been very happily working with Fuji Neopan 1600. But they’re all souped in Rodinal. I develop all my own film myself, personally. And I also base the fact that I develop my film personally means that there’s going to be certain irregularities in my agitation. And I have discovered that, in these irregularities there is some creative input. I don’t want my film to be developed too well, too cleanly, too smoothly. I don’t want that slick look. I’ve had a life long relationship with grain. You know I originally started out as a photojournalist when I was young. I’ve always felt that grain gave texture both to cinema, as well as photography. I’ve used it for any number of reasons for the entire length of my career. It’s almost harder to get a grainy image nowadays than it is to get the shot.
merelyok: i like your Tri-X perceptol combo. nice!
Found this link here.
Quote:
Chris/Larry: Your work really takes advantage of the 35mm film dynamic range, with its characteristic graininess and tonality. How has the changing of materials, the newer films with finer grain, effected you? Have you pretty much stayed with the one film and developer combination?
Ralph: I’ve used Rodinal since 1961. I use Tri-x almost exclusively but occasionally, sometimes I get in the mood to use Fuji 400. But either one is the same to me. And for my night work, I’ve been very happily working with Fuji Neopan 1600. But they’re all souped in Rodinal. I develop all my own film myself, personally. And I also base the fact that I develop my film personally means that there’s going to be certain irregularities in my agitation. And I have discovered that, in these irregularities there is some creative input. I don’t want my film to be developed too well, too cleanly, too smoothly. I don’t want that slick look. I’ve had a life long relationship with grain. You know I originally started out as a photojournalist when I was young. I’ve always felt that grain gave texture both to cinema, as well as photography. I’ve used it for any number of reasons for the entire length of my career. It’s almost harder to get a grainy image nowadays than it is to get the shot.
merelyok: i like your Tri-X perceptol combo. nice!
Last edited:
filmfan
Well-known
If you are only scanning, you will see a deceivingly low amount of grain. Don't worry, when you make actual prints (the final step of the image-making process), the grain will be there.
raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
Lawrence,
Your photo is very nice.
It looked like a day shot with the nylon stocking was put over the lens to introduce the grain. If not for the street lamps, I wouldn't thought it was a night shot.
raytoei
Your photo is very nice.
It looked like a day shot with the nylon stocking was put over the lens to introduce the grain. If not for the street lamps, I wouldn't thought it was a night shot.
raytoei
Vics
Veteran
wwww.freestylephoto.biz Has Rodinal AND a successor brand that is the same furmula as Rodinal. Check it out! BTW, I love that Neopan 1600/D76 picture. I've tried pushing film, but it always just looks underexposed to me. I think Rodinal is the key for you. For more grain than that, crop to a small part to the neg. Anyone remember the guy who was doing that back in the '60s? First name James, but... used a Nikon w/105/2.5. great grain pictures!
Vic
Vic
