johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
I will be sending my synched IIIa in for a CLA after summer: its probably not seen one since it was synched, early fifties.
My 1955 DS M3 just was CLA'd by Will van Manen but the RF patch remains too dim, so at the end of summer it's off to CCR Luton to have its complete RF refurbished.
I got an 1955 M3 SS converted from simonsawsunlight that I'm working on now. RF is clean, focus correct, transport okay, but the intermediate gear to couple lever, transport and shutter is busted. Easy fix with the gear DAG is sending over. Bigger issue: rusty gears
but I'm spending many hours cleaning that out without dismantling(I'm not that good). Still, I would not call that procedure a CLA, only C and L, since A is unnecessary
I own an M6 Classic 0.85 without any issues, I had and sold an M2, M4, M5, M8, IIIc, IIIa and none of those needed a CLA. Well, they might have had one
All in all, I can't complain.
My 1955 DS M3 just was CLA'd by Will van Manen but the RF patch remains too dim, so at the end of summer it's off to CCR Luton to have its complete RF refurbished.
I got an 1955 M3 SS converted from simonsawsunlight that I'm working on now. RF is clean, focus correct, transport okay, but the intermediate gear to couple lever, transport and shutter is busted. Easy fix with the gear DAG is sending over. Bigger issue: rusty gears
but I'm spending many hours cleaning that out without dismantling(I'm not that good). Still, I would not call that procedure a CLA, only C and L, since A is unnecessary I own an M6 Classic 0.85 without any issues, I had and sold an M2, M4, M5, M8, IIIc, IIIa and none of those needed a CLA. Well, they might have had one
All in all, I can't complain.
john neal
fallor ergo sum
I have bought a few old Leicas, and found that underuse is often the reason for needing a CLA, my MP I have had from new (7 or 8 years) and it is still 100% (OK, apart from the dodgy seal on the eyepiece), my M4 has just run a bearing or something in the wind-on mechanism and will be off to CRR for its first CLA in, what, 40 years? So I don't think there are any real quality issues.
What does, often, cause problems is the "amateur" repairman - you must have seen their handywork? Shutter curtains so over tensioned that you could lose a finger, and an oil slick speading across all the internal components. Both guaranteed to give problems in a short while, but at least they get to shift it on that auction site as "working but untried".
That's to say nothing of using the wrong tools, leaving butchered screw heads and damaged threads for the next owner to have to correct. On balance, give me one that has sat for 40 years - at least it can be revived without too much effort - I have a lovely black III that has only had 3 owners from new, sold 2nd hand in 1939 and again to me 3 years ago, after sitting in a drawer since the 1950s or 60s. When it arrived the shutter was so dry it literally shrieked when released.
Luckily, the curtains had not dried out, so a gentle CLA has brought it back to life. I may have to change the beam splitter due to age related deterioration, but that's common too - the silvering oxidises over time, but again, an easy fix. Now restored, I find it a joy to use, but probably too good to risk as a daily shooter (see the M4). I have no doubt that it will still be performing for my grandchildren when they are in their middle age.
Contrast that to my daughter's modern plastic digicompact thing - she only has to look at it wrong while it's in bootup (whatever that is) and it has to go off to be unjammed, probably with a new focus gear, and it costs £75 a time. I know which I prefer.
What does, often, cause problems is the "amateur" repairman - you must have seen their handywork? Shutter curtains so over tensioned that you could lose a finger, and an oil slick speading across all the internal components. Both guaranteed to give problems in a short while, but at least they get to shift it on that auction site as "working but untried".
That's to say nothing of using the wrong tools, leaving butchered screw heads and damaged threads for the next owner to have to correct. On balance, give me one that has sat for 40 years - at least it can be revived without too much effort - I have a lovely black III that has only had 3 owners from new, sold 2nd hand in 1939 and again to me 3 years ago, after sitting in a drawer since the 1950s or 60s. When it arrived the shutter was so dry it literally shrieked when released.
Luckily, the curtains had not dried out, so a gentle CLA has brought it back to life. I may have to change the beam splitter due to age related deterioration, but that's common too - the silvering oxidises over time, but again, an easy fix. Now restored, I find it a joy to use, but probably too good to risk as a daily shooter (see the M4). I have no doubt that it will still be performing for my grandchildren when they are in their middle age.
Contrast that to my daughter's modern plastic digicompact thing - she only has to look at it wrong while it's in bootup (whatever that is) and it has to go off to be unjammed, probably with a new focus gear, and it costs £75 a time. I know which I prefer.
Thanks.
* clean the old lubricants out of the wind mechanism and the shutter and relube these parts with new oil or grease where needed
Hmmm, not a problem for Nikons, so I forgot Leica's need this done every now and then. Ok this would be a part of the "CL" in a "CLA".
* replace any worn or broken parts
To me, repairs seem above and beyond what a CLA would encompass.
* adjust the shutter speeds to the correct times
* adjust the rangefinder for accuracy
* adjust the light meter for accuracy (if the camera has one)
So this would be a part of the "A" in a "CLA".
Is it reasonable to expect that a CLA would also include the internals of a finder being cleaned, the flange (mount to film plane) distance being checked, and the rangefinder adjusted to match the actual focus point?
My guess is that most CLA's would not include this.
Jaques H
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I'm not at all upset Chris, though if I'd paid out for a new LEICA M8 and my red dot fell off I'd be raging mad, especially if Leica sent me the wrong size dot!!!
I wonder at what time did Leica change the specs on the M8 red dot, and why.
ampguy
Veteran
3-4 of my 6-7 Leicas needed work within a couple of years, 2 were very minor, not needing full CLA's, just the rewind washer/crank freeze on an M4P, then an M6. These things are like fine watches, if you fondle them and use them gently they are fine. If you use them as tools, especially year round, you'll want/need weather/dust sealing and hardening. Not the soft cheezy parts they use stock.
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250swb
Well-known
I think that in these days of the internet people are just over analyzing any perceived problems and sending the cameras back for repair because society demands instant perfection, yet we all know rangefinders are a learning curve for people coming from SLR's etc.
Its like rangefinder or lens focusing accuracy, a lot of older Leica hands know when something is working or not working for them in their everyday work. But now if a newcomer finds a focus shift, isn't used to rangefinder cameras, or reads to much on the internet, they are told to do tests of a focusing chart, an experiment that most definitely isn't helped by inexperience. There is no available leeway to gain experience before the camera is sent back, it has to be wrong, I spent $7000, my DSLR never did that......
So I would say the majority of todays service centre calls are down to user error, or inexperience, or absurd expectations fuelled by 'internet experts' (in that they don't actually use the cameras very much that they are talking about).
So instead of a thesis about how perfect Leica's are, or links to test charts, the number of returned cameras could be drastically reduced by just saying 'go out and take some photographs'.
Steve
Its like rangefinder or lens focusing accuracy, a lot of older Leica hands know when something is working or not working for them in their everyday work. But now if a newcomer finds a focus shift, isn't used to rangefinder cameras, or reads to much on the internet, they are told to do tests of a focusing chart, an experiment that most definitely isn't helped by inexperience. There is no available leeway to gain experience before the camera is sent back, it has to be wrong, I spent $7000, my DSLR never did that......
So I would say the majority of todays service centre calls are down to user error, or inexperience, or absurd expectations fuelled by 'internet experts' (in that they don't actually use the cameras very much that they are talking about).
So instead of a thesis about how perfect Leica's are, or links to test charts, the number of returned cameras could be drastically reduced by just saying 'go out and take some photographs'.
Steve
ampguy
Veteran
yeah
yeah
Go and try to take photos when your advance lever freezes at the 14th - 17th frame.
Gets pretty frustrating when you can't advance, and can't rewind at that point. ...
yeah
Go and try to take photos when your advance lever freezes at the 14th - 17th frame.
Gets pretty frustrating when you can't advance, and can't rewind at that point. ...
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Oh ok, sorry, I thought you were poking fun at him for obsessing over the missing red dot.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Um...
No.
I've been earning a living with the help of my Leicas for over 30 years, with no 'fondling' or 'using gently'. This includes motorcycle touring on three continents, temperatures up to the 40sC, well over 100 F, Indian monsoon, the beach I used to live 70 yards from, and more.
Then again, I'm still wearing the Omega Seamaster that I was bought for my 17th or 18th birthday, over 40 years ago -- though admittedly I don't wear a watch every day, the way I used to for the first 25 years or so, and I no longer go swimming with it on.
Cheers,
R.
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John Lawrence
Well-known
Wow! All I got for my 17th and 18th birthdays were pyjamas and slippers - both long since worn out!
John
john neal
fallor ergo sum
We must really be of the same vintage Roger, I still wear my 1970's one every day - it goes where I go, wet or dry. Come to think, it probably needs a service now, it's gaining 5 seconds a day (aaarrrgghhh!)
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
After owning my M2 for 35+ years, I decided to get a CLA from Focal Point. There was nothing wrong with it, I just thought I should.
My M3 started underexposing, so I showed it to Sherry during a Leica annual meeting. She held a finger lightly on the shutter curtain and tripped it, then told me it needed a little work. So I sent it to her after the meeting for a CLA. It's perfect now.
I sent an M6 classic to DAG for the finder upgrade. He did a partial CLA while he had it.
I have bought three IIIcs off ebay. They have all needed a CLA. Dried up lubes were a problem with those. Two of them needed new shutter curtains. All perfect now. I use John Maddox for Barnacks.
My M3 started underexposing, so I showed it to Sherry during a Leica annual meeting. She held a finger lightly on the shutter curtain and tripped it, then told me it needed a little work. So I sent it to her after the meeting for a CLA. It's perfect now.
I sent an M6 classic to DAG for the finder upgrade. He did a partial CLA while he had it.
I have bought three IIIcs off ebay. They have all needed a CLA. Dried up lubes were a problem with those. Two of them needed new shutter curtains. All perfect now. I use John Maddox for Barnacks.
What is included in a CLA really depends on who does the work. There is no official guideline for what's included. I have never heard of flange distance check being included unless the owner reported focus problems, and not every tech has the proper equipment to check or adjust this anyway.
The light traps on older Leicas can often become loose or completely unglued, which is potential disaster if they get into the shutter mechanism. Not all techs will go this deep. A quality CLA will take the camera completely apart, including removing the rangefinder from an M.
Previous poster is right, so many of these cameras have been marred by people who don't know what they are doing, and/or using the wrong tools.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I always preferred the Engish term, "Strip, clean and overhaul", but even that can range from "muck out, relubricate and bring back within tolerances" to "rebuild to as-new".
All too often, at the cheaper end of the market, "CLA" means "sluice out with solvent, to remove the old, dried-up lubricants, then flood with the wrong type of oil." Some don't even bother with the first step.
Cheers,
R.
All too often, at the cheaper end of the market, "CLA" means "sluice out with solvent, to remove the old, dried-up lubricants, then flood with the wrong type of oil." Some don't even bother with the first step.
Cheers,
R.
_mark__
Well-known
Quality control
macrylinda1
Newbie
I've had three CLAs on my IIIf in 45 years: not bad for a $50 camera. I also have had a 90mm Elmar CLAd. Overall, I think the quality is excellent my repairs and problems have been not from worn parts but dried lube, haze and out of tune shutters.
F456
Tom H
I went through a bad patch with my Leica M-system about 12 years ago. At that time my Summicron-M 90/2 and my M6 combined to give rangefinder inaccuracies, and after that I dropped my M6 in the school groups' meeting room at the British Museum, again putting the rangefinder out of true (not that surprising, I suppose). Since then I've been very cautious about jolts and have read others mention in passing that Leicas aren't as sturdy as some other cameras (Nikons were mentioned).
Could this be (a) untrue - I was just unlucky, and had to expect problems from dropping a camera flat on its back; (b) broadly true in general of rangefinder mechanisms; or (c) truer of the more recent Leicas - say M6 onwards?
It set up a bit of an anxiety in me about Leica redoubtability, so that I've taken Nikon F3 cameras abroad on holiday when Leicas would have been preferable, all things being equal.
I also found the rewind knob quickly came off if accidentally wound a little bit the wrong way, and I couldn't get it back on!
Could this be (a) untrue - I was just unlucky, and had to expect problems from dropping a camera flat on its back; (b) broadly true in general of rangefinder mechanisms; or (c) truer of the more recent Leicas - say M6 onwards?
It set up a bit of an anxiety in me about Leica redoubtability, so that I've taken Nikon F3 cameras abroad on holiday when Leicas would have been preferable, all things being equal.
I also found the rewind knob quickly came off if accidentally wound a little bit the wrong way, and I couldn't get it back on!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Tom,
'Just unlucky' is my guess. I've NEVER had a Leica RF damaged in 40+ years of using Leicas, and 35+ years of using Ms, from old M3 to new MP and M-digital. My Leicas have been dropped and banged around -- once, to the extent that my M4P needed a new viewfinder glass, which cracked in half -- and have been carried hundreds of thousands of miles by air, by train, by road (including Indian buses, my old Land Rover, motorcycles, bicycles...) and on foot.
Cheers,
R.
'Just unlucky' is my guess. I've NEVER had a Leica RF damaged in 40+ years of using Leicas, and 35+ years of using Ms, from old M3 to new MP and M-digital. My Leicas have been dropped and banged around -- once, to the extent that my M4P needed a new viewfinder glass, which cracked in half -- and have been carried hundreds of thousands of miles by air, by train, by road (including Indian buses, my old Land Rover, motorcycles, bicycles...) and on foot.
Cheers,
R.
F456
Tom H
Roger,
This is cheering news and probably enough for me to cast aside any misgivings I've harboured about the mechanisms and their adjustment. I get a bit obsessive in this hobby (dare I say most people who have a serious hobby overdo it one way or another?) and should just get on with it. 'Just unlucky' sounds about right. Everything has been fine since learning to deal with the back focus problem of some lenses, never noticed till the M8 came along with its cropped format and less forgiving sensor plane. Incidentally, that has provided yet another reason for shooting at full aperture. This is especially so with the recently superseded version of the Summilux-M 35/1.4 ASPH; I don't know if you get the same focusing behaviour with the original 35/1.4. I sold mine (the pre-ASPH), regretted it, and have never managed to find a good one since - I really miss the compact size and unobtrusive magic of this lens with its round metal hood.
Cheers,
Tom
This is cheering news and probably enough for me to cast aside any misgivings I've harboured about the mechanisms and their adjustment. I get a bit obsessive in this hobby (dare I say most people who have a serious hobby overdo it one way or another?) and should just get on with it. 'Just unlucky' sounds about right. Everything has been fine since learning to deal with the back focus problem of some lenses, never noticed till the M8 came along with its cropped format and less forgiving sensor plane. Incidentally, that has provided yet another reason for shooting at full aperture. This is especially so with the recently superseded version of the Summilux-M 35/1.4 ASPH; I don't know if you get the same focusing behaviour with the original 35/1.4. I sold mine (the pre-ASPH), regretted it, and have never managed to find a good one since - I really miss the compact size and unobtrusive magic of this lens with its round metal hood.
Cheers,
Tom