will-i_am
Well-known
sorry Roger trust me i have no issue with people who earn a living and i was simply trying to present a bfa as great option for somebody interested in different art practices as well as photography, sorry if i came off as an arty wanker. Also loved your disc world reference earlier it's too bad Pratchetts mind is going such a great writer
Richard G
Veteran
All very sobering. Lots of good advice. I've learnt a lot. There was an elite sports photographer in a video online recently talking about how to get started. He looked very young: portfolio, portfolio portfolio was his message. You need some good gear and you can't get a front row seat at a big game. Shoot any game. Get someone to mentor you, work for him or her for peanuts maybe, for a while. This is if you want to earn money from photography, when your economy picks up maybe. Studying photography probably is for aristocrats, as so many have pointed out. There might be that one in a thousand, but he would not be asking questions on RFF and probably would not want to do a photography course either. Disappointing isn't it? Advice usually is.
mgd711
Medium Format Baby!!
dogbunny
Registered Boozer
To the OP:
This is all pretty heady stuff from a lot of different people with different experiences--some more bitter than others. For what it is worth I'll throw in my opinion. Do what you want as long as it feels right. Once you make your choice, put all of your energy behind that choice. Your plan sounds like it could result in a happy life. I'm sure this will offend someone, but those who tell stories about getting a BFA and then being doomed to poverty show a lack of creativity and resourcefulness more than anything else.
I have a BFA, in writing, and I've managed to live a fairly worry free life, travel the world, support a family and have this camera hobby. I ended up getting an MA in something unrelated to my major and I'm currently doing fairly well financially and professionally. The point is, this is just the beginning of your journey, don't let those who have given up on theirs get you down. Where you begin is not where you end.
If you are going to do the teaching thing down the line it doesn't much matter what your undergrad is in anyway. And of course, always be somewhat suspicious of any advice given online.
This is all pretty heady stuff from a lot of different people with different experiences--some more bitter than others. For what it is worth I'll throw in my opinion. Do what you want as long as it feels right. Once you make your choice, put all of your energy behind that choice. Your plan sounds like it could result in a happy life. I'm sure this will offend someone, but those who tell stories about getting a BFA and then being doomed to poverty show a lack of creativity and resourcefulness more than anything else.
I have a BFA, in writing, and I've managed to live a fairly worry free life, travel the world, support a family and have this camera hobby. I ended up getting an MA in something unrelated to my major and I'm currently doing fairly well financially and professionally. The point is, this is just the beginning of your journey, don't let those who have given up on theirs get you down. Where you begin is not where you end.
If you are going to do the teaching thing down the line it doesn't much matter what your undergrad is in anyway. And of course, always be somewhat suspicious of any advice given online.
mgd711
Medium Format Baby!!
Here’s a though for you... One of my friends in Facebook just posted this... though its been going around for a while...
“Don’t Work, avoid telling the truth, be hated and love someone.”
Written by Adrian Tan, author of The Teenage Textbook (1988), was the guest-of-honour at a recent NTU convocation ceremony. This was his speech to the graduating class of 2008.
I must say thank you to the faculty and staff of the Wee Kim Wee School of Communication and Information for inviting me to give your convocation address. It’s a wonderful honour and a privilege for me to speak here for ten minutes without fear of contradiction, defamation or retaliation. I say this as a Singaporean and more so as a husband.
My wife is a wonderful person and perfect in every way except one. She is the editor of a magazine. She corrects people for a living. She has honed her expert skills over a quarter of a century, mostly by practising at home during conversations between her and me.
On the other hand, I am a litigator. Essentially, I spend my day telling people how wrong they are. I make my living being disagreeable.
Nevertheless, there is perfect harmony in our matrimonial home. That is because when an editor and a litigator have an argument, the one who triumphs is always the wife.
And so I want to start by giving one piece of advice to the men: when you’ve already won her heart, you don’t need to win every argument.
Marriage is considered one milestone of life. Some of you may already be married. Some of you may never be married. Some of you will be married. Some of you will enjoy the experience so much, you will be married many, many times. Good for you.
The next big milestone in your life is today: your graduation. The end of education. You’re done learning.
You’ve probably been told the big lie that “Learning is a lifelong process” and that therefore you will continue studying and taking masters’ degrees and doctorates and professorships and so on. You know the sort of people who tell you that? Teachers. Don’t you think there is some measure of conflict of interest? They are in the business of learning, after all. Where would they be without you? They need you to be repeat customers.
The good news is that they’re wrong.
The bad news is that you don’t need further education because your entire life is over. It is gone. That may come as a shock to some of you. You’re in your teens or early twenties. People may tell you that you will live to be 70, 80, 90 years old. That is your life expectancy.
I love that term: life expectancy. We all understand the term to mean the average life span of a group of people. But I’m here to talk about a bigger idea, which is what you expect from your life.
You may be very happy to know that Singapore is currently ranked as the country with the third highest life expectancy. We are behind Andorra and Japan, and tied with San Marino. It seems quite clear why people in those countries, and ours, live so long. We share one thing in common: our football teams are all hopeless. There’s very little danger of any of our citizens having their pulses raised by watching us play in the World Cup. Spectators are more likely to be lulled into a gentle and restful nap.
Singaporeans have a life expectancy of 81.8 years. Singapore men live to an average of 79.21 years, while Singapore women live more than five years longer, probably to take into account the additional time they need to spend in the bathroom.
So here you are, in your twenties, thinking that you’ll have another 40 years to go. Four decades in which to live long and prosper.
Bad news. Read the papers. There are people dropping dead when they’re 50, 40, 30 years old. Or quite possibly just after finishing their convocation. They would be very disappointed that they didn’t meet their life expectancy.
I’m here to tell you this. Forget about your life expectancy.
After all, it’s calculated based on an average. And you never, ever want to expect being average.
Revisit those expectations. You might be looking forward to working, falling in love, marrying, raising a family. You are told that, as graduates, you should expect to find a job paying so much, where your hours are so much, where your responsibilities are so much.
That is what is expected of you. And if you live up to it, it will be an awful waste.
If you expect that, you will be limiting yourself. You will be living your life according to boundaries set by average people. I have nothing against average people. But no one should aspire to be them. And you don’t need years of education by the best minds in Singapore to prepare you to be average.
What you should prepare for is mess. Life’s a mess. You are not entitled to expect anything from it. Life is not fair. Everything does not balance out in the end. Life happens, and you have no control over it. Good and bad things happen to you day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment. Your degree is a poor armour against fate.
Don’t expect anything. Erase all life expectancies. Just live. Your life is over as of today. At this point in time, you have grown as tall as you will ever be, you are physically the fittest you will ever be in your entire life and you are probably looking the best that you will ever look. This is as good as it gets. It is all downhill from here. Or up. No one knows.
What does this mean for you? It is good that your life is over.
Since your life is over, you are free. Let me tell you the many wonderful things that you can do when you are free.
The most important is this: do not work.
Work is anything that you are compelled to do. By its very nature, it is undesirable.
Work kills. The Japanese have a term “Karoshi”, which means death from overwork. That’s the most dramatic form of how work can kill. But it can also kill you in more subtle ways. If you work, then day by day, bit by bit, your soul is chipped away, disintegrating until there’s nothing left. A rock has been ground into sand and dust.
There’s a common misconception that work is necessary. You will meet people working at miserable jobs. They tell you they are “making a living”. No, they’re not. They’re dying, frittering away their fast-extinguishing lives doing things which are, at best, meaningless and, at worst, harmful.
People will tell you that work ennobles you, that work lends you a certain dignity. Work makes you free. The slogan “Arbeit macht frei” was placed at the entrances to a number of Nazi concentration camps. Utter nonsense.
Do not waste the vast majority of your life doing something you hate so that you can spend the small remainder sliver of your life in modest comfort. You may never reach that end anyway.
Resist the temptation to get a job. Instead, play. Find something you enjoy doing. Do it. Over and over again. You will become good at it for two reasons: you like it, and you do it often. Soon, that will have value in itself.
I like arguing, and I love language. So, I became a litigator. I enjoy it and I would do it for free. If I didn’t do that, I would’ve been in some other type of work that still involved writing fiction – probably a sports journalist.
So what should you do? You will find your own niche. I don’t imagine you will need to look very hard. By this time in your life, you will have a very good idea of what you will want to do. In fact, I’ll go further and say the ideal situation would be that you will not be able to stop yourself pursuing your passions. By this time you should know what your obsessions are. If you enjoy showing off your knowledge and feeling superior, you might become a teacher.
Find that pursuit that will energise you, consume you, become an obsession. Each day, you must rise with a restless enthusiasm. If you don’t, you are working.
Most of you will end up in activities which involve communication. To those of you I have a second message: be wary of the truth. I’m not asking you to speak it, or write it, for there are times when it is dangerous or impossible to do those things. The truth has a great capacity to offend and injure, and you will find that the closer you are to someone, the more care you must take to disguise or even conceal the truth. Often, there is great virtue in being evasive, or equivocating. There is also great skill. Any child can blurt out the truth, without thought to the consequences. It takes great maturity to appreciate the value of silence.
In order to be wary of the truth, you must first know it. That requires great frankness to yourself. Never fool the person in the mirror.
I have told you that your life is over, that you should not work, and that you should avoid telling the truth. I now say this to you: be hated.
It’s not as easy as it sounds. Do you know anyone who hates you? Yet every great figure who has contributed to the human race has been hated, not just by one person, but often by a great many. That hatred is so strong it has caused those great figures to be shunned, abused, murdered and in one famous instance, nailed to a cross.
One does not have to be evil to be hated. In fact, it’s often the case that one is hated precisely because one is trying to do right by one’s own convictions. It is far too easy to be liked, one merely has to be accommodating and hold no strong convictions. Then one will gravitate towards the centre and settle into the average. That cannot be your role. There are a great many bad people in the world, and if you are not offending them, you must be bad yourself. Popularity is a sure sign that you are doing something wrong.
The other side of the coin is this: fall in love.
I didn’t say “be loved”. That requires too much compromise. If one changes one’s looks, personality and values, one can be loved by anyone.
Rather, I exhort you to love another human being. It may seem odd for me to tell you this. You may expect it to happen naturally, without deliberation. That is false. Modern society is anti-love. We’ve taken a microscope to everyone to bring out their flaws and shortcomings. It far easier to find a reason not to love someone, than otherwise. Rejection requires only one reason. Love requires complete acceptance. It is hard work – the only kind of work that I find palatable.
Loving someone has great benefits. There is admiration, learning, attraction and something which, for the want of a better word, we call happiness. In loving someone, we become inspired to better ourselves in every way. We learn the truth worthlessness of material things. We celebrate being human. Loving is good for the soul.
Loving someone is therefore very important, and it is also important to choose the right person. Despite popular culture, love doesn’t happen by chance, at first sight, across a crowded dance floor. It grows slowly, sinking roots first before branching and blossoming. It is not a silly weed, but a mighty tree that weathers every storm.
You will find, that when you have someone to love, that the face is less important than the brain, and the body is less important than the heart.
You will also find that it is no great tragedy if your love is not reciprocated. You are not doing it to be loved back. Its value is to inspire you.
Finally, you will find that there is no half-measure when it comes to loving someone. You either don’t, or you do with every cell in your body, completely and utterly, without reservation or apology. It consumes you, and you are reborn, all the better for it.
Don’t work. Avoid telling the truth. Be hated. Love someone.
“Don’t Work, avoid telling the truth, be hated and love someone.”
Written by Adrian Tan, author of The Teenage Textbook (1988), was the guest-of-honour at a recent NTU convocation ceremony. This was his speech to the graduating class of 2008.
I must say thank you to the faculty and staff of the Wee Kim Wee School of Communication and Information for inviting me to give your convocation address. It’s a wonderful honour and a privilege for me to speak here for ten minutes without fear of contradiction, defamation or retaliation. I say this as a Singaporean and more so as a husband.
My wife is a wonderful person and perfect in every way except one. She is the editor of a magazine. She corrects people for a living. She has honed her expert skills over a quarter of a century, mostly by practising at home during conversations between her and me.
On the other hand, I am a litigator. Essentially, I spend my day telling people how wrong they are. I make my living being disagreeable.
Nevertheless, there is perfect harmony in our matrimonial home. That is because when an editor and a litigator have an argument, the one who triumphs is always the wife.
And so I want to start by giving one piece of advice to the men: when you’ve already won her heart, you don’t need to win every argument.
Marriage is considered one milestone of life. Some of you may already be married. Some of you may never be married. Some of you will be married. Some of you will enjoy the experience so much, you will be married many, many times. Good for you.
The next big milestone in your life is today: your graduation. The end of education. You’re done learning.
You’ve probably been told the big lie that “Learning is a lifelong process” and that therefore you will continue studying and taking masters’ degrees and doctorates and professorships and so on. You know the sort of people who tell you that? Teachers. Don’t you think there is some measure of conflict of interest? They are in the business of learning, after all. Where would they be without you? They need you to be repeat customers.
The good news is that they’re wrong.
The bad news is that you don’t need further education because your entire life is over. It is gone. That may come as a shock to some of you. You’re in your teens or early twenties. People may tell you that you will live to be 70, 80, 90 years old. That is your life expectancy.
I love that term: life expectancy. We all understand the term to mean the average life span of a group of people. But I’m here to talk about a bigger idea, which is what you expect from your life.
You may be very happy to know that Singapore is currently ranked as the country with the third highest life expectancy. We are behind Andorra and Japan, and tied with San Marino. It seems quite clear why people in those countries, and ours, live so long. We share one thing in common: our football teams are all hopeless. There’s very little danger of any of our citizens having their pulses raised by watching us play in the World Cup. Spectators are more likely to be lulled into a gentle and restful nap.
Singaporeans have a life expectancy of 81.8 years. Singapore men live to an average of 79.21 years, while Singapore women live more than five years longer, probably to take into account the additional time they need to spend in the bathroom.
So here you are, in your twenties, thinking that you’ll have another 40 years to go. Four decades in which to live long and prosper.
Bad news. Read the papers. There are people dropping dead when they’re 50, 40, 30 years old. Or quite possibly just after finishing their convocation. They would be very disappointed that they didn’t meet their life expectancy.
I’m here to tell you this. Forget about your life expectancy.
After all, it’s calculated based on an average. And you never, ever want to expect being average.
Revisit those expectations. You might be looking forward to working, falling in love, marrying, raising a family. You are told that, as graduates, you should expect to find a job paying so much, where your hours are so much, where your responsibilities are so much.
That is what is expected of you. And if you live up to it, it will be an awful waste.
If you expect that, you will be limiting yourself. You will be living your life according to boundaries set by average people. I have nothing against average people. But no one should aspire to be them. And you don’t need years of education by the best minds in Singapore to prepare you to be average.
What you should prepare for is mess. Life’s a mess. You are not entitled to expect anything from it. Life is not fair. Everything does not balance out in the end. Life happens, and you have no control over it. Good and bad things happen to you day by day, hour by hour, moment by moment. Your degree is a poor armour against fate.
Don’t expect anything. Erase all life expectancies. Just live. Your life is over as of today. At this point in time, you have grown as tall as you will ever be, you are physically the fittest you will ever be in your entire life and you are probably looking the best that you will ever look. This is as good as it gets. It is all downhill from here. Or up. No one knows.
What does this mean for you? It is good that your life is over.
Since your life is over, you are free. Let me tell you the many wonderful things that you can do when you are free.
The most important is this: do not work.
Work is anything that you are compelled to do. By its very nature, it is undesirable.
Work kills. The Japanese have a term “Karoshi”, which means death from overwork. That’s the most dramatic form of how work can kill. But it can also kill you in more subtle ways. If you work, then day by day, bit by bit, your soul is chipped away, disintegrating until there’s nothing left. A rock has been ground into sand and dust.
There’s a common misconception that work is necessary. You will meet people working at miserable jobs. They tell you they are “making a living”. No, they’re not. They’re dying, frittering away their fast-extinguishing lives doing things which are, at best, meaningless and, at worst, harmful.
People will tell you that work ennobles you, that work lends you a certain dignity. Work makes you free. The slogan “Arbeit macht frei” was placed at the entrances to a number of Nazi concentration camps. Utter nonsense.
Do not waste the vast majority of your life doing something you hate so that you can spend the small remainder sliver of your life in modest comfort. You may never reach that end anyway.
Resist the temptation to get a job. Instead, play. Find something you enjoy doing. Do it. Over and over again. You will become good at it for two reasons: you like it, and you do it often. Soon, that will have value in itself.
I like arguing, and I love language. So, I became a litigator. I enjoy it and I would do it for free. If I didn’t do that, I would’ve been in some other type of work that still involved writing fiction – probably a sports journalist.
So what should you do? You will find your own niche. I don’t imagine you will need to look very hard. By this time in your life, you will have a very good idea of what you will want to do. In fact, I’ll go further and say the ideal situation would be that you will not be able to stop yourself pursuing your passions. By this time you should know what your obsessions are. If you enjoy showing off your knowledge and feeling superior, you might become a teacher.
Find that pursuit that will energise you, consume you, become an obsession. Each day, you must rise with a restless enthusiasm. If you don’t, you are working.
Most of you will end up in activities which involve communication. To those of you I have a second message: be wary of the truth. I’m not asking you to speak it, or write it, for there are times when it is dangerous or impossible to do those things. The truth has a great capacity to offend and injure, and you will find that the closer you are to someone, the more care you must take to disguise or even conceal the truth. Often, there is great virtue in being evasive, or equivocating. There is also great skill. Any child can blurt out the truth, without thought to the consequences. It takes great maturity to appreciate the value of silence.
In order to be wary of the truth, you must first know it. That requires great frankness to yourself. Never fool the person in the mirror.
I have told you that your life is over, that you should not work, and that you should avoid telling the truth. I now say this to you: be hated.
It’s not as easy as it sounds. Do you know anyone who hates you? Yet every great figure who has contributed to the human race has been hated, not just by one person, but often by a great many. That hatred is so strong it has caused those great figures to be shunned, abused, murdered and in one famous instance, nailed to a cross.
One does not have to be evil to be hated. In fact, it’s often the case that one is hated precisely because one is trying to do right by one’s own convictions. It is far too easy to be liked, one merely has to be accommodating and hold no strong convictions. Then one will gravitate towards the centre and settle into the average. That cannot be your role. There are a great many bad people in the world, and if you are not offending them, you must be bad yourself. Popularity is a sure sign that you are doing something wrong.
The other side of the coin is this: fall in love.
I didn’t say “be loved”. That requires too much compromise. If one changes one’s looks, personality and values, one can be loved by anyone.
Rather, I exhort you to love another human being. It may seem odd for me to tell you this. You may expect it to happen naturally, without deliberation. That is false. Modern society is anti-love. We’ve taken a microscope to everyone to bring out their flaws and shortcomings. It far easier to find a reason not to love someone, than otherwise. Rejection requires only one reason. Love requires complete acceptance. It is hard work – the only kind of work that I find palatable.
Loving someone has great benefits. There is admiration, learning, attraction and something which, for the want of a better word, we call happiness. In loving someone, we become inspired to better ourselves in every way. We learn the truth worthlessness of material things. We celebrate being human. Loving is good for the soul.
Loving someone is therefore very important, and it is also important to choose the right person. Despite popular culture, love doesn’t happen by chance, at first sight, across a crowded dance floor. It grows slowly, sinking roots first before branching and blossoming. It is not a silly weed, but a mighty tree that weathers every storm.
You will find, that when you have someone to love, that the face is less important than the brain, and the body is less important than the heart.
You will also find that it is no great tragedy if your love is not reciprocated. You are not doing it to be loved back. Its value is to inspire you.
Finally, you will find that there is no half-measure when it comes to loving someone. You either don’t, or you do with every cell in your body, completely and utterly, without reservation or apology. It consumes you, and you are reborn, all the better for it.
Don’t work. Avoid telling the truth. Be hated. Love someone.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Stewart,
Well, 'flabello' is 'fan'...
Of course, it's not in Latin, it's in Ancient Morporkhian, which bears some slight resemblance -- as in '"sodomy non sapiens," buggered if I know.
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
I'm sorry too: I didn't mean it as an attack on you, though of course on re-reading it, I can't see it otherwise now. Anyway, sorry again.
Yes, it is a tragedy about Sir Terry (as he now is). For my money, he is the greatest living writer. Anyone who prizes Literature above funny, witty, erudite books, with a lot of roman à clef in them, is not living on the same planet as the rest of us, or on the Discworld. Guards! Guards! is his Thatcherite novel; Carpe Jugulum, New Labour.
He said (in print) that he has been "accused of literature." A little later, he appeared on a BBC literature programme. I subsequently suggested to him (at a book signing -- I cannot, alas, claim him as a friend) that this meant he must be guilty of literature. He replied, "No, they just wanted somebody whose books actually sold, because they don't usually get anyone like that on the programme."
Cheers,
R.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Mike: WONDERFUL! Especially "I'd do it for nothing." Well, yes, as long as you can earn enough to live comfortably. If you can't afford to do it for nothing, that takes the shine off it.
When I started writing for Amateur Photographer, the then editor (Garry Coward-Williams) was kind enough to say that he especially prized three of his non-staff writers: Dr. Stewart Bell, Geoffrey Crawley and me. I was of course enormously flattered to be mentioned in the same breath. Now, both Stewart and Geoffrey are dead...
And I don't have a single formal qualification in photography. I don't think either of them had, either.
Tashi delek,
R.
When I started writing for Amateur Photographer, the then editor (Garry Coward-Williams) was kind enough to say that he especially prized three of his non-staff writers: Dr. Stewart Bell, Geoffrey Crawley and me. I was of course enormously flattered to be mentioned in the same breath. Now, both Stewart and Geoffrey are dead...
And I don't have a single formal qualification in photography. I don't think either of them had, either.
Tashi delek,
R.
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Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
To the OP:
This is all pretty heady stuff from a lot of different people with different experiences--some more bitter than others. For what it is worth I'll throw in my opinion. Do what you want as long as it feels right. Once you make your choice, put all of your energy behind that choice. Your plan sounds like it could result in a happy life. I'm sure this will offend someone, but those who tell stories about getting a BFA and then being doomed to poverty show a lack of creativity and resourcefulness more than anything else.
I have a BFA, in writing, and I've managed to live a fairly worry free life, travel the world, support a family and have this camera hobby. I ended up getting an MA in something unrelated to my major and I'm currently doing fairly well financially and professionally. The point is, this is just the beginning of your journey, don't let those who have given up on theirs get you down. Where you begin is not where you end.
If you are going to do the teaching thing down the line it doesn't much matter what your undergrad is in anyway. And of course, always be somewhat suspicious of any advice given online.
You have no clue what you're talking about. The young man who asked our advice is in North America, you are not. Conditions here are much different than in other parts of the world. Those of us who told him how it is have not failed, given up, or any of the other nasty lies you've written to make yourself look superior. I have a feeling that slamming some of us was the primary intent of your post, rather than helping the young man who started this thread. That's unethical and irresponsible.
I've hardly given up; I earn my living entirely from creative work. Had I given up or lacked creativity, you wouldn't see me here. As for resourcefulness, well some are born with resources, others aren't. You work with what you have. I lived several years in Santa Fe, one of the great centers of the arts in the USA. 95% of the people there who called themselves professional artists lived off trust funds or wealthy parents; they did not earn a living from their art but they appeared successful at first glance. I got to know a lot of those people. Most of my classmates from art school have given up. They do not do art anymore. I didn't give up, but it took me a long time and cost me a lot in health to persevere with my dream. If the OP is willing to do that, its fine...but he should know what he will really face so that he can make an informed decision about his future. Lying to him is not helping him.
Andy Kibber
Well-known
Some decent advice in here, along with some strange ideas.
To the OP: if you can complete your BFA with no debt and then move into a one-year teaching program, I'd say do it. Even if you decide to change careers you'll still be young and you'll have a couple of degrees.
The trick is not to go into debt. I can't stress that enough. Lines of credit and student loans seem fine when you're racking them up but even a relatively modest amount of debt (say, $20,000) is a huge burden if you want to stay in the creative industry.
To the OP: if you can complete your BFA with no debt and then move into a one-year teaching program, I'd say do it. Even if you decide to change careers you'll still be young and you'll have a couple of degrees.
The trick is not to go into debt. I can't stress that enough. Lines of credit and student loans seem fine when you're racking them up but even a relatively modest amount of debt (say, $20,000) is a huge burden if you want to stay in the creative industry.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
To the OP:
This is all pretty heady stuff from a lot of different people with different experiences--some more bitter than others. For what it is worth I'll throw in my opinion. Do what you want as long as it feels right. Once you make your choice, put all of your energy behind that choice. Your plan sounds like it could result in a happy life. I'm sure this will offend someone, but those who tell stories about getting a BFA and then being doomed to poverty show a lack of creativity and resourcefulness more than anything else.
I have a BFA, in writing, and I've managed to live a fairly worry free life, travel the world, support a family and have this camera hobby. I ended up getting an MA in something unrelated to my major and I'm currently doing fairly well financially and professionally. The point is, this is just the beginning of your journey, don't let those who have given up on theirs get you down. Where you begin is not where you end.
If you are going to do the teaching thing down the line it doesn't much matter what your undergrad is in anyway. And of course, always be somewhat suspicious of any advice given online.
Do you feel that your BFA in writing has helped you? If so, how? I'm not arguing: I'm just intrigued.
Cheers,
R.
Turtle
Veteran
My advice is the same as CC's; get a degree that represents a safety net. You do not need quals for any kind of photography apart from perhaps the conceptual fine art photo scene (where your quals are important for convincing people that your work is credible because otherwise they might be too scared to give it the time of day. After all, would you trust a witchdoctor who actually had no formal qualifications?)
Get a job that allows you to pay for your photography or go into commercial photography that allows you time and money to persue your passions. I got a degree in Biological Sciences and then joined the military. I the became a security and political analyst and right now I am not sure what I am, but the point is that I have been able to grow as a photographer considerably because I have been able to afford to live, shoot, travel, reflect, shoot... you get the picture. The bottom line is this: a degree in something practical will in no way prevent you being able to become a photographer as long as you stay in touch with your photography passion. The best photographers the world has ever seen often taught on photography courses, but few if any ever sat in on one! The other alternative is to apprentice for a really good photographer in a field you appreciate and see how the business works. This will help a great deal if you want to go the commercial route and have no interest in other careers.
Get a job that allows you to pay for your photography or go into commercial photography that allows you time and money to persue your passions. I got a degree in Biological Sciences and then joined the military. I the became a security and political analyst and right now I am not sure what I am, but the point is that I have been able to grow as a photographer considerably because I have been able to afford to live, shoot, travel, reflect, shoot... you get the picture. The bottom line is this: a degree in something practical will in no way prevent you being able to become a photographer as long as you stay in touch with your photography passion. The best photographers the world has ever seen often taught on photography courses, but few if any ever sat in on one! The other alternative is to apprentice for a really good photographer in a field you appreciate and see how the business works. This will help a great deal if you want to go the commercial route and have no interest in other careers.
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I used only photography.
While you are offering sound advice, I think you are generalizing a bit too much. I think it depends on what part of the country you are in and a few other factors. In NYC, places still hire without specific credentials (I'm a BFA who works for a regulator of stock and option exchanges). Obviously this happens more often when the economy is perceived to be on an upswing.
dave lackey
Veteran
Ahh...now that begs the question, When is it too late to get a BFA or MFA?
zumbido
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Another view: after trying a few "safety net" majors and hating the grind of it, I went back to 'English' (Modern American Poetry and Humor, specifically, in my case) and just got on with it. What I did along the way was work a "safety net" student job. I was a computer lab attendant, which let me have time for both writing and learning more about programming on my own--and provided me with contacts as I moved up to supervisory positions over the four years.
As it stands now, that safety net became my career and its one that is flexible enough that I can devote time every day to writing and photography, and occasionally make a little money from contests and one-offs in order to keep my hobby from eating up the money that is now eaten up by my kid instead.
Chris is right to some extent. Your major, in a lot of places in contemporary America, does matter more than it used to. But it can be supplemented with work experience and contacts that you make (in an entirely different realm) while you're in school.
PKR
Veteran
Just a note to say I support Chris's comment.
Many of the kids I meet, who are looking for work were educated in one of the 3 local art schools (San Francisco) are trust fund kids. They have never done any kind of work. They have nice portfolio cases and a degree, but not much else to offer. And, they likely don't need the a job, as they don't need the money. My guess is that they didn't have the grades or a need to go to an east coast (MBA) school and their parents sent them off to SF for an art degree. They can't draw, or don't care to learn, so they became "photographers".. just a guess.
pkr
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Piewacket
Established
I think the most important consideration is where you go to school. Not all photography programs are equal. If you want to be a commercial photographer than you should look at a school with a good commercial program. I went to one of the best, Art Center College of Design and most of my instructors were working photographers, art directors and other industry professionals with real world experience.
Many programs will only employ instructors with a master's degree, which is all well and good but I will put up my 20 + years of actually working against a degree any day.
It is a complicated business that involves networking, persistence and marketing... and talent and a little luck don't hurt.
Many programs will only employ instructors with a master's degree, which is all well and good but I will put up my 20 + years of actually working against a degree any day.
It is a complicated business that involves networking, persistence and marketing... and talent and a little luck don't hurt.
PKR
Veteran
Lee Friedlander is an Art Center Grad. The best Art Directors and Graphic designers I've worked with, in over 40 years of picture making, were Art Center Grads. I recently suggested that a kid (son of a friend) apply to Art Center.. the response was, that he didn't want to attend classes 6 days a week. Another spoiled rich kid.
Tim Gray
Well-known
I'd concur with the some of the advice in this thread. Don't go into debt too much. Don't go into debt too much. Don't go into debt too much. Be open to the possibility that photography as a hobby might be more enjoyable than photography as a job. Even if you want to do photography as a job, a second degree/bit of training might really help, like a business degree.
I haven't taken an art course since 11th grade. I majored in science in college and went to grad school and managed to escape with no debt. I have a decent job that lets me buy photography-related junk, lets me travel, live a decent lifestyle, and gives me enough time off that I can pursue other things. As a result, I do more in the way of photography and film making than any of my friends who got majored in art or got BFAs and MFAs. Most of them are stuck in completely unrelated jobs just so they can pay the crushing rents in NYC and instead of doing art in their free time, they live the NYC 'lifestyle'. The few that work in fields related to their degrees are basically low man on the totem pole in industry-type positions. For example, instead of making documentary films, they are basically gophers on a CBS new show.
On the flip side, my one friend who HAS some modicum of success in an art-type field does the Autotune the News stuff. He majored in computer science.
I haven't taken an art course since 11th grade. I majored in science in college and went to grad school and managed to escape with no debt. I have a decent job that lets me buy photography-related junk, lets me travel, live a decent lifestyle, and gives me enough time off that I can pursue other things. As a result, I do more in the way of photography and film making than any of my friends who got majored in art or got BFAs and MFAs. Most of them are stuck in completely unrelated jobs just so they can pay the crushing rents in NYC and instead of doing art in their free time, they live the NYC 'lifestyle'. The few that work in fields related to their degrees are basically low man on the totem pole in industry-type positions. For example, instead of making documentary films, they are basically gophers on a CBS new show.
On the flip side, my one friend who HAS some modicum of success in an art-type field does the Autotune the News stuff. He majored in computer science.
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