JayGannon
Well-known
Yep lets all agree photography is not something your likly to make a fortune off no matter what route you take into it.
Some people learn in Academia and teach it in an academic situation, some people assist for a few years and shoot commercially, some people cross the lines. Each to their own.
But never exect to get rich, but who needs to be rich when you do the job you love (Spoken as a European
)
Some people learn in Academia and teach it in an academic situation, some people assist for a few years and shoot commercially, some people cross the lines. Each to their own.
But never exect to get rich, but who needs to be rich when you do the job you love (Spoken as a European
)
Community college is good for learning the basics and technical stuff...
atlcruiser
Part Yeti
Chris you are just a ray of sunshine
My undergrad was in medical anthropology, my MFA was in sculpture. I sold a little, taught a lttle but soon can to realise that I liked money but i liked art as well. I got into the entertainment business as a lighting designer, set designer, production manager. I was using all of the skills I got from university but in a new way...still it was sort of art.
Eventually I opened a new business restoring old cars. My sculpture/art background made that possible.
I guess I never quite bought into the idea of college getting you a job. College is an education and the ability to use the education gets you the job; or better yet, helps you open your own business.
The basic idea of college is to teach you to think. That ability can be applied to almsot any industry or situation hence you are very employable if you approach it that way.
My suggesstion would be to not declare a major unitl you must. Take a wide range of classes and see what you are drawn to. Eventually, it will become clear what direction you are moving in. I am 43 and I am still waiting fo it to become clear
My undergrad was in medical anthropology, my MFA was in sculpture. I sold a little, taught a lttle but soon can to realise that I liked money but i liked art as well. I got into the entertainment business as a lighting designer, set designer, production manager. I was using all of the skills I got from university but in a new way...still it was sort of art.
Eventually I opened a new business restoring old cars. My sculpture/art background made that possible.
I guess I never quite bought into the idea of college getting you a job. College is an education and the ability to use the education gets you the job; or better yet, helps you open your own business.
The basic idea of college is to teach you to think. That ability can be applied to almsot any industry or situation hence you are very employable if you approach it that way.
My suggesstion would be to not declare a major unitl you must. Take a wide range of classes and see what you are drawn to. Eventually, it will become clear what direction you are moving in. I am 43 and I am still waiting fo it to become clear
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Chris,
Isn't this a bit chicken-and-egg? WHY do houses cost so much? Because people are willing and able to pay those prices...
Trying to relate prices to incomes is meaningless. Cornwall, my home country, is one of the poorest regions in the UK in terms of per-capita income. It's one of the most expensive in terms of housing, though, because it's a nice place to live. Londoners sell their (even more expensive) houses and retire there, and those in the right sort of business (artists, writers, etc.) who are making enough money also move there if they can.
Cheers,
R.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Yep lets all agree photography is not something your likly to make a fortune off no matter what route you take into it.
Some people learn in Academia and teach it in an academic situation, some people assist for a few years and shoot commercially, some people cross the lines. Each to their own.
But never exect to get rich, but who needs to be rich when you do the job you love (Spoken as a European
I agree about doing work you love, but we're not really talking about getting rich. We're talking about the difficulty in earning even the most basic living. Outside New York and a few other places, employers simply will not hire art degree holders in the USA. Most artists, unless they teach, are self employed. Being self-employed is nice but it takes several years of struggle to get up and running to where you are earning enough to live which is why we're suggesting double majoring in something you can get work with to pay the bills while you build your business. Make no mistake about it, art is a business and its one where a lot of people get rich off the labor of the artists who are told that they don't have a right to earn a fair amount for their work.
Tim Gray
Well-known
Roger Hicks
Veteran
The basic idea of college is to teach you to think. That ability can be applied to almost any industry or situation hence you are very employable if you approach it that way.
My suggesstion would be to not declare a major unitl you must. Take a wide range of classes and see what you are drawn to. Eventually, it will become clear what direction you are moving in. I am 43 and I am still waiting for it to become clear
Dear David,
This makes you eligible for junior membership of the Peter Pan Club, which a friend and I founded in the 1970s for those who hadn't yet decided what they want to do when they grow up. Senior membership is available only to those under 25.
It would be nice if thinking were invariably a transferable skill, but as MBAs and other professional managers regularly demonstrate (a) it's a hard skill to acquire -- jargon is a lot easier -- and (b) it requires some understanding of the subject you are thinking (or pretending to think) about.
Cheers,
R.
deirdre
Well-known
My take on it: because Prop 13 (property tax rate cap) made the ongoing costs of owning a more expensive house more tolerable, it drove the price of housing up, drove business out of the state, and so forth.
DougFord
on the good foot
The law of unintended consequences has you on the hook for more than you can imagine.
I gotta chance to look through your photos and I can feel the passion that you have for the endeavor.
Best of luck with your studies.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Deirdre,
...and it's a nice place to live.
Incidentally, if business has been driven out of the state, where's all this money coming from to buy the expensive houses?
Cheers,
R.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
That's a good question. Keep in mind that most people cannot afford the housing in places like SF but they pay because they're forced to. A lot of them have 'interest only' mortgages, where they never really pay off the loan, just interest because thats all they can afford to pay. There are even people here in Indiana who do that to buy a big fancy house to impress people, despite not making enough money. I swear to God, there are a LOT of houses in Aboite Township (A wealthy area of Ft. Wayne) that have virtually no furniture because the owners are spending literally every dime to pay the $4000 a month house payments on their $375,000 house. I've been in several of them and its stupid. Nice houses in middle class areas can be bought here for $100,000 but some people need something to brag about.
JayGannon
Well-known
Oh no I'm not against a double major particularly in something like business (International Business Degree here) but I am against the concept that one cant earn enough to live from art. Which is increaingly the case in the US, and I find it disgraceful that someone would be left in that situation, I believe art is something that has been the subject of patronage for thousands of years and should continue to be so. The artists just need to recognize that and shake the current image of the starving artist and relaise that they too can/are important members of society.
atlcruiser
Part Yeti
Peter pan or not I am moving along in my life just fine.
Dektol Dan
Well-known
Making a Living at Art = Oxymoron
Making a Living at Art = Oxymoron
I have a broad area MFA, painting major, photography minor, my father did the same in the 1930's. I also bought myself a teaching credential for a back up.
Teaching kept me from my art/photography/writing music so I learned a couple of trades. I worked those trades for 5 or 6 months a year, painted or was in the dark room or recording studio the rest of the year. I did this for 30 years, and raised a family. Now I'm writing music and practicing photography full time (I remarried well, ha!).
Mick Jagger said, 'no artist is ever discovered in a garret', which is true, but I say, 'you aint' an artist if you ain't making art'.
I'm glad that I formally studied art/photography even though I was born with a father who was an artist. I agree that it is almost impossible to make a regular pay check from pursuing one's own art. However, what has not been said here is that it seems that very few here really have lived with real artists, or arty type personalities. NEVER tell them that there life is just a hobby. NEVER! And even if there is no income, that does not make it a hobby if it is a genuine pursuit. Our society disrespects artists, and this will never change as long as there is a Republican breathing somewhere.
Most real artists have starved, lost families, and major opportunities to stick with art (as I have), not as a gamble, but as a passion.
I say go to school, and work your way through; school is a way of buying experience. Most self taught photographers are ALWAYS missing critical pieces of the experience puzzle because they pick an choose what they think are necessary skills. These gaps become a handicap at some point. If your are lucky enough to find an apprenticeship in the arts do that, but finding that today is nearly impossible.
Making a Living at Art = Oxymoron
I have a broad area MFA, painting major, photography minor, my father did the same in the 1930's. I also bought myself a teaching credential for a back up.
Teaching kept me from my art/photography/writing music so I learned a couple of trades. I worked those trades for 5 or 6 months a year, painted or was in the dark room or recording studio the rest of the year. I did this for 30 years, and raised a family. Now I'm writing music and practicing photography full time (I remarried well, ha!).
Mick Jagger said, 'no artist is ever discovered in a garret', which is true, but I say, 'you aint' an artist if you ain't making art'.
I'm glad that I formally studied art/photography even though I was born with a father who was an artist. I agree that it is almost impossible to make a regular pay check from pursuing one's own art. However, what has not been said here is that it seems that very few here really have lived with real artists, or arty type personalities. NEVER tell them that there life is just a hobby. NEVER! And even if there is no income, that does not make it a hobby if it is a genuine pursuit. Our society disrespects artists, and this will never change as long as there is a Republican breathing somewhere.
Most real artists have starved, lost families, and major opportunities to stick with art (as I have), not as a gamble, but as a passion.
I say go to school, and work your way through; school is a way of buying experience. Most self taught photographers are ALWAYS missing critical pieces of the experience puzzle because they pick an choose what they think are necessary skills. These gaps become a handicap at some point. If your are lucky enough to find an apprenticeship in the arts do that, but finding that today is nearly impossible.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Is anyone actually saying that?
As for 'Most real artists have starved, lost families. . . ' this is fairly disputable too for most of human history. The Suffering Artist (with capitals) is mostly an invention of the 18th century: Goethe had a lot to answer for with The Sorrows of Young Werther. Until artists decided they had to Suffer For Their Art, the majority of artists followed a fairly straightforward career path, via an apprenticeship.
While I would agree that "Most self taught photographers are ALWAYS missing critical pieces of the experience puzzle because they pick an choose what they think are necessary skills" I'd add the rider that in this case, the ones who are successful are the ones who do not, in fact, lack these 'critical pieces of the experience puzzle'.
I don't think that many people 'disrespect' artists, but I am reasonably confident that most people 'disrespect' those who refuse to earn a living because their Art is more important. It is hard not to think, "He's doing what he damn' well pleases, and I'd like to do the same" -- even if 'what he damn' well pleases' is great art, and 'I'd like to do the same' is drinking beer and watching sport on television.
Cheers,
Sparrow
Veteran
Maybe it's different in the US then, but I expect a MA graduate to have mastered the basics and technical stuff before they come to me for a job, I'm old fashioned perhaps, but I get sick of looking at ill executed work each summer
JayGannon
Well-known
Oh for sure, I;ve assisted for 3 people who have made millions from their work, but its usually the exception, unfortunatly.
MikeL
Go Fish
Does this thread belong in the Please make sweeping generalizations despite the limits of an individuals experience and while not accepting that one's experience is limited forum or in the I'll take a stance just to pick a fight forum or in the That's not necessary in my opinion, even though I have not had that experience, I know I'm right and you are wrong forum?
Experience changes people in whatever environment- academic, welding, pounding he streets. I don't see how people can judge and often dismiss the value of experience, wherever it may come.
Experience changes people in whatever environment- academic, welding, pounding he streets. I don't see how people can judge and often dismiss the value of experience, wherever it may come.
-doomed-
film is exciting
Rather than all the doom and gloom vomit people always spew.
Here's my take.
Do what you want, nothing will be handed to you and you'll have to work for it.
If you want to take pictures for a living, do it. Take the time to pick up some other skills, business, marketing, and networking.
Accept that it may not be profitable for some time to come and dedicate yourself to the craft. Work long hours, take multiple jobs to pay bills, and keep at it.
Or take the advice of all the people that say its a terrible living and do something else and keep photography as a hobby.
There's no such thing as a free ride, and there is no easy way -- unless you are independently wealthy and well connected.
Here's my take.
Do what you want, nothing will be handed to you and you'll have to work for it.
If you want to take pictures for a living, do it. Take the time to pick up some other skills, business, marketing, and networking.
Accept that it may not be profitable for some time to come and dedicate yourself to the craft. Work long hours, take multiple jobs to pay bills, and keep at it.
Or take the advice of all the people that say its a terrible living and do something else and keep photography as a hobby.
There's no such thing as a free ride, and there is no easy way -- unless you are independently wealthy and well connected.
John Elder
Well-known
I have not read all the threads posted. It depends on why you want the degree in photography. I got a BFA in Photography from RIT because I wanted to learn photography and I thought RIT was the best school in the USA for that. Nobody graduating college these days are getting the jobs they want. I suggest you study what you wan to learn, not what you think will get a job. If you want a guarranteed job, healthcare services will always be needed. Also plumbers and welders.
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