How much expiration is too much expiration?

[Jamie123]

I just picked up some old lab gear somebody didn't want anymore and among them were a couple of packs of old expired 4x5 sheet film. One is an unopened 10 sheet pack of Kodak Ektacolor Pro Gold 100T film which expired in 1998. I'm sure it hasn't been refrigerated or anything. Any chance this is still useable or should I just keep it as a souvenir?

I also got a whole bunch of expired Ilford and Kodak BW paper. I'm sure it's also around 10 years old. Can this still be used? I don't print myself but if it's useable I'll find someone to give it to. Otherwise I'll just use it for notes.

 

[sevo]

For projection or traditional optical printing, colour film usually will barely last twice the period between production and nominal expiration even if you refrigerate - the curve drift between the individual layers soon gets so big that it becomes obvious (in some cases, e.g. Velvia 50, this may happen already before the expiration date). On the other hand, low sensitivity black and white film is often good for a decade past expiration or more - and as you can tweak the curves in postprocessing (up to a regular calibration), the same is applicable to colour film as long as it is used for scanning only. With a proper colour calibration target and software, the results of mildly expired film may be just as good as from fresh film, as each layer will be within acceptable tolerances seen by itself, the problem only arises as there are several layers that each have drifted into a different direction so that they now need separate treatment.

In your case, the film will be no beauty, twelve years is a lot of time. But as a low sensitivity tungsten (i.e. long exposure) film it is among the least critical film types and may have fared well enough to make it still useful for scanning.

The black and white paper will be toast, unless it is very traditional fibre based stock without embedded developer, and the storage conditions were very good. The common types of multicontrast and PE based paper popular a decade ago will in all probability be fogged to a grey hue after ten years - and as prints are directly viewed, you can't subtract that base fog in the scan as you'd do with negatives.

 

[Jamie123]

For projection or traditional optical printing, colour film usually will barely last twice the period between production and nominal expiration even if you refrigerate - the curve drift between the individual layers soon gets so big that it becomes obvious (in some cases, e.g. Velvia 50, this may happen already before the expiration date). On the other hand, low sensitivity black and white film is often good for a decade past expiration or more - and as you can tweak the curves in postprocessing (up to a regular calibration), the same is applicable to colour film as long as it is used for scanning only. With a proper colour calibration target and software, the results of mildly expired film may be just as good as from fresh film, as each layer will be within acceptable tolerances seen by itself, the problem only arises as there are several layers that each have drifted into a different direction so that they now need separate treatment.

In your case, the film will be no beauty, twelve years is a lot of time. But as a low sensitivity tungsten (i.e. long exposure) film it is among the least critical film types and may have fared well enough to make it still useful for scanning.

The black and white paper will be toast, unless it is very traditional fibre based stock without embedded developer, and the storage conditions were very good. The common types of multicontrast and PE based paper popular a decade ago will in all probability be fogged to a grey hue after ten years - and as prints are directly viewed, you can't subtract that base fog in the scan as you'd do with negatives.

Well, I'm definitely not looking to do any critical work with the film but I might use it for some experimental stuff. I also have half a pack of T-Max 100 sheets which I'll probably use to practice loading film holders with 🙂

Good to know that the paper is no good anymore. It's mostly Multigrade FB and RC paper. Now I have a lot of nice Ilford paper for notes and shopping lists 🙂
I assume touching undeveloped film paper has no negative effects on the skin? Any hazardous chemicals I should be aware of? I just openend a box of 5x7 Fujicolor Crystal Archival paper and noticed that it smells a bit.

 

[LabasArabas]

The film certainly won't be as good as fresh, but it's usefulness will depend on your expectations. I shoot lots of old expired film, and get good results. In my workflow for old film, I shoot, process at lab if it's color neg or tranny, and then scan myself. I've always been able to produce nice images after mucking around with editing software. You may want to over expose, or "push" process after seeing the 1st roll or couple of sheets, from a lot of old film, but if it's for just shooting and having fun creating images, just go for it. It will work. I used outdated Kodak 160T about a year ago, and it was fine. Can't remember how out of date, but it was probably at least five years. I remember being worried.

As for the paper, it simply just has to be tested. If it's ok it's ok. If it's not it will have a base fog and may be blotchy. Darkroom printing is a time consuming, and would be a waste of time with old unpredictable paper. Unless you want to get arty! Photograms?? Bleach?? Pen and ink??

cheers

 

[charjohncarter]

Servo, thanks for the nice explanation. I'm shooting some out of date Tmax 400 today just to use is it. It seems it will a least give me something.

 

[venchka]

Carbon transfer printers like to use fixed out printing paper. Ask around. You may find someone who can use the paper for a photographic purpose.

 

[sepiareverb]

I just printed on some Agfa Insignia that was at least ten years old. The paper had been stored since new in my darkroom, less than three feet from the propane wall heater that heats the darkroom and my office upstairs. Zero fog. Benzotriazole (available as "Finisher Blue" from Moersch) or Potassium Bromide will reduce fog should you encounter any.

I'm not a fan of playing with expired film so can't give any advice with experience to back it up.

 

[Jamie123]

Carbon transfer printers like to use fixed out printing paper. Ask around. You may find someone who can use the paper for a photographic purpose.

Yeah, I sort of hate just wasting all this but I really don't know anyone near me who does darkroom printing. I also got a Saunders easel, some Ilford Multigrade and some Kodak Polymax filters and have no idea what to do with it. I'm sure I can find someone who'll take the filters off me as they're easy to ship but the easel is likely destined to collect dust in my attic.
Is a Saunders easel (it says "VT3040" on it) even worth anything or should I just dispose of it?

 

[sevo]

I just printed on some Agfa Insignia that was at least ten years old.

I've printed on Ilfobrom and Brovira papers from the seventies respectively eighties, and other than the former having developed a much stronger blue tone than old prints done on the yet unexpired paper, they were fine.

As long as papers don't contain anything which would make them self-destruct, they obviously last forever, or rather until cosmic radiation gets them (which it does only do over the course of decades or centuries at paper sensitivity and grain size). Good old-school paper can come quite close to that.

However, most modern (seventies and later) paper has developers and sensitizers embedded, and these do chemically expose the paper rather soon, even under good storage conditions - personally I have come to consider the expiration date on Ilford Multigrade overly optimistic, mine often went bad from the edges even before that date, and I've never had significantly expired variable contrast paper which was any good.

 

[tbeaman]

Take a sheet and test it. You'll probably be surprised.

For a comparison to something similar, below is a link to a shot I took on some 4x5 Portra 100T that expired in 2001. Mostly unknown storage conditions (I was told it was basement stored for some undefined amount of recent time). Any anomalies are related to scanning and/or developing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tombeaman/5200829831/

Sevo gives good advice, though, and it should be known I've only scanned this and not tried to print it optically. The colors did seem to balance pretty easily once scanned, and the density on the neg itself looks good, but I can't be certain there aren't any color shifts.

 

[Eric L]

Oh that masking easel is worth something. Good 4 bladed easels are expensive when new and even used can fetch you something. I'm looking for one and I'd take it off your hands. =)

But you're probably nowhere close to me. =(

I think that one is a European size, no? Marked in cms?

 

[Jamie123]

Oh that masking easel is worth something. Good 4 bladed easels are expensive when new and even used can fetch you something. I'm looking for one and I'd take it off your hands. =)

But you're probably nowhere close to me. =(

I think that one is a European size, no? Marked in cms?

Yeah, it's marked in cm (size is 30x40cm) for European sizes. I did some research and saw that they can fetch a pretty penny. There was one just like mine sold on German eBay a week ago for €200. Pretty crazy.

The problem is this thing is rather big so I'd prefer not to have to ship it anywhere. I posted it to a local classifieds board but the local market for darkroom users is quite small so I'm not sure it'll sell. If all else fails I'll post it here in the RFF classifieds at a price low enough so the higher shipping costs are woth it.

 

[Jamie123]

Take a sheet and test it. You'll probably be surprised.

For a comparison to something similar, below is a link to a shot I took on some 4x5 Portra 100T that expired in 2001. Mostly unknown storage conditions (I was told it was basement stored for some undefined amount of recent time). Any anomalies are related to scanning and/or developing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tombeaman/5200829831/

Sevo gives good advice, though, and it should be known I've only scanned this and not tried to print it optically. The colors did seem to balance pretty easily once scanned, and the density on the neg itself looks good, but I can't be certain there aren't any color shifts.

I'll definitely test the film. I might even try it out in the studio with some tungsten balanced lighting.