Kiev 4A frustrating banding on negs

[Vendee]

I have this infuriating banding problem on the negs of my Kiev 4A. The dark (on prints) bands run from top to bottom. Its probably best to let the scans tell the story. The first one is obviously more pronounced but you can still see the banding on the second one. It surely can't be a light leak as that would result in light streaks. Besides, I've replaced the light seals and the curtains seem to be fine. It isn't a development issue either as I've got 5 other film bodies and I do my own developing. Its just the Kiev that shows this problem. I've also used differing film brands. I'm getting to the stage where I leave the Kiev at home and take another film body out. Any advice appreciated.

 

[ray*j*gun]

There are experts here who will be able to discuss this in detail but that's a shutter issue IMO where the slats are hanging up. You don't discuss when the camera was last serviced but it clearly needs it. I don't know if Youxin Ye works on these but Fedka does.

 

[Vendee]

There are experts here who will be able to discuss this in detail but that's a shutter issue IMO where the slats are hanging up. You don't discuss when the camera was last serviced but it clearly needs it. I don't know if Youxin Ye works on these but Fedka does.

Hi Ray, thanks for your quick reply.

Thing is, the shutter curtain on these moves from top to bottom. If they were hanging up, I would have thought that the bands would be horizontal, not vertical like I've got?

 

[t6un]

These are made with 1/1000th, aren't they? The only possible explanation is that the shutter slot is too narrow, so that even the small dents at the curtain edges show up as variation of the slot width, and therefore an uneven exposure.

 

[oftheherd]

A little difficult to be sure, or there may be two issues. You may have a shutter problem, but I don't think so. Go to the Kiev Survival Site and read there. I think you may have a light leak. In the Kiev, they can come from the most unlikely places. My 4am leaks came from around the back, where it fit to the body. It didn't look like that should be the problem, but a little ersatz yak yarn (black yarn), tacked to the body cured the problem. You can also get them from 2 or 3 other places that wouldn't occur on most cameras.

Good luck.

 

[t6un]

The streaks are dark, it can't be light leak?
Vendee, check the curain edges, IIm sure you find a signature of bumps that correspond to the streaks on the first image.

 

[Vendee]

The streaks are dark, it can't be light leak?
Vendee, check the curain edges, IIm sure you find a signature of bumps that correspond to the streaks on the first image.

Hi there, what you suggest does make some sort of sense and is probably the best idea anyone has come up with so far. The helicopter shot was almost certainly shot at 1/1000 and the other one possibly at 1/500. I suppose if I put another roll through and I shoot a selection of shots at 1/1000 down to 1/125, and the faster shutter shots are worse than the slower shots, then that would confirm your theory.

Thanks for your help. 🙂

 

[Nomad Z]

If it's a bumpy edge to the curtain(s), then the helicopter shot was done at a faster speed than the street scene - narrower slot, so more obscuration. There is also a dark band running along the top of the helicopter shot (bottom of the frame in-camera), the bumpy edge effect is towards the top in both images. I don't know what way the curtains move, but that looks like the first curtain starting slowly, or the second curtain speeding up at the end.

EDIT: Or, come to think of it, the first curtain being slow at either end, or the second curtain being fast at either end (or maybe even a bit of both).

 

[Vendee]

If it's a bumpy edge to the curtain(s), then the helicopter shot was done at a faster speed than the street scene - narrower slot, so more obscuration. There is also a dark band running along the top of the helicopter shot (bottom of the frame in-camera), the bumpy edge effect is towards the top in both images. I don't know what way the curtains move, but that looks like the first curtain starting slowly, or the second curtain speeding up at the end.

EDIT: Or, come to think of it, the first curtain being slow at either end, or the second curtain being fast at either end (or maybe even a bit of both).

Hi Nomad, thanks for your input. I think the dark band running horizontally across the top of the helicopter shot is actually a darkening of the sky.

 

[Nomad Z]

Hi Nomad, thanks for your input. I think the dark band running horizontally across the top of the helicopter shot is actually a darkening of the sky.

Not so sure about that - the vertical banding darkens towards the top. If the curtains were running perfectly, the reduced slot width would be consistent over the whole frame, resulting in a consistent dark vertical band. But it it clearly gets gradually darker towards the top, and the transition isn't as abrupt as, or in line with, the dark horizontal band (even though there is additional darkening of the vertical band when it passes over the horizontal one).

 

[Nomad Z]

A little more - look at the helicopter shot...

At the top left, there is a dark horizontal band. The density of this is very close to the lighter parts of the concrete in the foreground. If this band was darkening of the sky, and if it was consistent across the rest of the top of the frame, then the vertical banding over the concrete would be as dark as it is over the top part of the sky. As it is, the vertical banding over the sky is excessively dark, while that over the concrete with similar (or darker) tone is barely visible.

The only explanation I can think of for this is that the slot width is not consistent over the whole travel of the shutter - it's narrowing at the top of the image.

 

[farlymac]

Here's a thought. I see most of the streaking is on one half of the image (right side), with a definite demarkation in the center. Look at your negs and see if they are scratched. I think your shutter is hitting the film somehow, and a scratch will cause dark areas because the silver is now gone, just like in the other dark areas. A light leak would flare around a bit, and you have too sharp of a fall-off to be a leak. Some of the bands run the full width of the frame from top to bottom, like the one on the left, and is very well defined.

PF

 

[wolves3012]

If it's a bumpy edge to the curtain(s), then the helicopter shot was done at a faster speed than the street scene - narrower slot, so more obscuration. There is also a dark band running along the top of the helicopter shot (bottom of the frame in-camera), the bumpy edge effect is towards the top in both images. I don't know what way the curtains move, but that looks like the first curtain starting slowly, or the second curtain speeding up at the end.

EDIT: Or, come to think of it, the first curtain being slow at either end, or the second curtain being fast at either end (or maybe even a bit of both).

Not totally impossible on a Kiev but highly unlikely. The two curtains are kind of semi-locked to each other and it's very difficult for them to run at different speeds. They are also vertical so that would not give banding across the frame. The "bumpy edge" effect is also very unlikely, the slot is too wide for that kind of effect IMO.

 

[wolves3012]

Never seen anyone post shots like that before but I seriously doubt it's the shutter itself at fault. Vertical banding from a vertical-travel shutter is very hard to explain, for starters. Please let us know if you solve it, I'd love to hear the answer!

Are you able to rule out any kind of vignetting effect from the lens, or anything foreign partially obstructing the camera throat causing something similar? Does this happen on every film and with more than one lens?

 

[Vendee]

Here's a thought. I see most of the streaking is on one half of the image (right side), with a definite demarkation in the center. Look at your negs and see if they are scratched. I think your shutter is hitting the film somehow, and a scratch will cause dark areas because the silver is now gone, just like in the other dark areas. A light leak would flare around a bit, and you have too sharp of a fall-off to be a leak. Some of the bands run the full width of the frame from top to bottom, like the one on the left, and is very well defined.

PF

Nice try but there is at least 1mm between the curtain and the film plane. I've held a piece of film up to the back and fired the shutter. Its definitely not hitting the film. Thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[Vendee]

Never seen anyone post shots like that before but I seriously doubt it's the shutter itself at fault. Vertical banding from a vertical-travel shutter is very hard to explain, for starters. Please let us know if you solve it, I'd love to hear the answer!

You'd love to hear the answer!!!! Not as much as me!! 😀

I did follow up on Nomad's suggestion and I can't see any bumps or irregularities on either of the curtain edges.

Thinking logically and retracing my steps now..... I bought the camera about 6 months ago. I put a roll of HP5+ through it and the shots were great. No banding and really nice contrasty photos from the Jupiter 8 lens. The only thing wrong was the frame spacing. The first half of the roll had a 12mm gap between frames and gradually by the end of the roll, the gap was down to the normal size of around 2mm.

I then tried to adjust the tension on the takeup spool to try and sort the spacing problems out. It was about then that the banding problems started. I wondered if the film being wound on to the take up spool too tightly might have damaged the emulsion but the banding is on the same place on each frame which shoots down my theory.

 

[Nomad Z]

I think a series of test shots is in order, running through all shutter speeds. Maybe even a series in landscape, and a series in portrait orientation. A reference shot taken with a known-good alternative camera and lens would be worthwhile as well.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Lightleak: check the bottom-plate and the body-shell, did any black felt fell out when you worked at the take up spool?

 

[Vendee]

I think a series of test shots is in order, running through all shutter speeds. Maybe even a series in landscape, and a series in portrait orientation. A reference shot taken with a known-good alternative camera and lens would be worthwhile as well.

Yes I think I need to shoot another roll at varying shutter speeds and try and find a light background where I can see if the banding extends the full depth of the frame. I think I've got a roll of expired Delta 100 in the freezer so I might shoot that off tomorrow if the light is good enough for 100 ISO film. I'm not too sure of the value of a reference shot with another camera. I do appreciate your advice though.

 

[Vendee]

Lightleak: check the bottom-plate and the body-shell, did any black felt fell out when you worked at the take up spool?

A light leak would produce light banding, not dark banding like I've got and as I said earlier, I've replaced all the light seals.