zvos1
Well-known
I think this is a BIG part of the problem. Most of us are not willing to stand up for our legal rights. I understand that no one wants to spend a night in jail but if we all protested and fought for our rights they couldn't possible arrest us all. Cops know this but as long as most people (me included) are willing to "bend over" when confronted nothing will change and photographers will be abused.
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
In my humble experience, people with guns always feel they are above the law. Now, to the most interesting part: I have only had good experiences with soldiers. These guys are trained to respect civilians as much as they are trained to shoot the ennemy in a battle field. Unfortunately cops are the exact opposite. Any civilian is a potential ennemy. But the worst cops of all are traffic police, these are the frustrated guys who carry guns but never use them, and are laughed about in police stations. I think 99% of the reported cases are done by these guys with the inferiority complex.
zauhar
Veteran
Good on you, George!
The trouble with the population today is not that it is too violent, but that it is not violent enough. In the depression, the authorities had to worry about riots. Today the cowed population stays in "Free Speech Zones" and engages in, at best, flaccid acts of civil disobedience.
That said, it is easier for people to stand up when they do so together. Today we are so atomized compared to years past that it takes a tremendous act of personal courage to stand up. And doing so can mean losing your freedom or even your life.
Randy
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
I know I've said this in here before but it bears repeating...
Do you older guys remember the old saying (and bumper sticker) that simply said "Question Authority"...I used to hate it...now I'm constantly doing it...
Do you older guys remember the old saying (and bumper sticker) that simply said "Question Authority"...I used to hate it...now I'm constantly doing it...
seakayaker1
Well-known
I disagree. Some things need immediate action, i.e., an individual throw's themselves onto a grenade to save his comrades. Starting a protest with a police officer while he is making an arrest in public because I believe my rights are being violated at that moment does not require immediate action. Take notes, get names of eye witnesses and press for resolution through the courts.
People are willing to spend a night in jail when required to protest. Putting a camera down, following directions and protesting through the courts system if your rights have been violated is due process. Videos and pictures of police performing their duties appear routinely in the news.
Experience has demonstrated that change comes about through slow and constant pressure applied to the law making bodies while soliciting approval of public opinion. If public opinion is on your side you have a chance. If the general public really does not care, then individuals can make solo stands every day of the week and their sound will be like a tree falling in the middle of forest. No one may hear the sound.
Certainly individuals have placed themselves in harms way to further a cause or demonstrate a right is being violated. Recent high profile example would be George Clooney and his father being arrested to demonstrate for human rights against Sudan actions against their citizens.
Civil rights, anti-war, woman's suffrage movements, etc., all were long drawn out affairs that had individuals and groups of people willing to be arrested to further their cause.
I just believe there is a time and a place for action. Best to have a strategy in place or else you might just be cannon fodder.
JMHO
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
One of my very favorite things to read is Abraham Lincoln's 1855 letter to Joshua Speed. The last sentence of the last full paragraph is prophetic when it comes to life in general. In this case Lincoln was writing about slavery. But if one is to take it slightly out of context and repeat it as such:
"...I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy [sic]."
then it takes on new meaning in all facets of life.
If WE allow it then we only have ourselves to blame for losing our rights.
Phil Forrest
"...I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy [sic]."
then it takes on new meaning in all facets of life.
If WE allow it then we only have ourselves to blame for losing our rights.
Phil Forrest
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
rlouzan...I understand your point.
So, what's next? perhaps banning press photographers from making pictures of police officers from less than 30', 60', 90'
Shoot from a distance that is safe (for you) and allows the officer to do his job without feeling/being threatened by you (or others).
It comes down to using good old Common Sense...
I have had police officers in Full Riot gear ask me to step back on the curb while shooting at certain Rallies...I comply with their request...some people think that since they have a camera they have a right to do whatever they want, wherever they want...getting in the way of a police officer trying to do his/her job will just piss them off...
So, what's next? perhaps banning press photographers from making pictures of police officers from less than 30', 60', 90'
Shoot from a distance that is safe (for you) and allows the officer to do his job without feeling/being threatened by you (or others).
It comes down to using good old Common Sense...
I have had police officers in Full Riot gear ask me to step back on the curb while shooting at certain Rallies...I comply with their request...some people think that since they have a camera they have a right to do whatever they want, wherever they want...getting in the way of a police officer trying to do his/her job will just piss them off...
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
The difference is...my house is Private Property...you cannot just walk through the front door whenever you want without my permission...
A shopping mall is Private Property but the Public is welcome there..they cannot enforce a "No Photography in the Mall" policy due to the First Amendment but they can enforce "Trespassing" if they want to intimidate or remove you from their property...
The problem with their "No Photography" rule is that they get to pick and choose when and where they enforce it...if you're taking pictures of your kids sitting with Santa they Love it...if your shooting the front window displays or maybe some of the architect (outside malls) and you're using something other than your normal P&S...they get a bit upset...
Try asking them to show you their "No Photography" Policy in writing...either they won't or their policy will state "Copyright" infringement laws...which doesn't apply at the time you are photographing...
Been there, Done that...before you can stand up for your Rights you need to know them...
rlouzan
Well-known
A funny story that actually happened to me ... about 16 years ago, I remember calling the cops because there was a guy standing on my aunt's roof. One of the cops tells me to stand on the other side of the street and poking his finger in my chest said "it's ok for him to do so, since he is standing on public property"
I really felt embarrassed for the other police officers. Turns out the guy was a friend of his. Wish I had a camcorder!
I really felt embarrassed for the other police officers. Turns out the guy was a friend of his. Wish I had a camcorder!N.delaRua
Well-known
I have two friends who I grew up with now on the police force.... Let's just say they don't get along with many people, and I would not want to cross them.
The fact of the matter is that they have a job to do: enforce the law. Sometimes we choose to break it, but most of the time we do not. Sometimes we make a mistake and break the law and get caught like carelessly speeding through a speeding trap in our own neighborhood. No one likes to admit their mistakes, even us citizens.
Most of all, the police where I grew up have a very bad reputation which is warranted, but not all are bad apples. Mostly, they demand respect which often they don't receive. Nothing makes them angrier.
I totally understand that the student has a right to photograph the police officers, and that he will likely be fine after the horrible legal proceedings happen and the ruffing up.
Not that he shouldn't have taken the pictures, but I never want to have an encounter with police officers ever. Never ever ever. It usually does not end well for me or anyone. Unless I thought the photograph was extremely compelling or meaningful, I would not have taken any, especially of a traffic stop. What is the value of the photo? To prove you have the right to do so? Is it interesting? Is it really worth the hassle you now have to deal with? Your assignment was night photography.... sound very broad to me.
Cops and people are corrupt all over the world, that is a fundamental aspect of human nature. We all bend and try to manipulate the rules to our advantages, and if you say you don't your full of it.
Life lesson: Sticking a camera in a cops face is usually a bad idea. 1) Because its annoying. 2) Because photos of a traffic stop are not interesting. 3) Because you never know when you are going to cross the wrong disgruntled police officer. 4) Its not worth unless there is real injustice taking place.
The fact of the matter is that they have a job to do: enforce the law. Sometimes we choose to break it, but most of the time we do not. Sometimes we make a mistake and break the law and get caught like carelessly speeding through a speeding trap in our own neighborhood. No one likes to admit their mistakes, even us citizens.
Most of all, the police where I grew up have a very bad reputation which is warranted, but not all are bad apples. Mostly, they demand respect which often they don't receive. Nothing makes them angrier.
I totally understand that the student has a right to photograph the police officers, and that he will likely be fine after the horrible legal proceedings happen and the ruffing up.
Not that he shouldn't have taken the pictures, but I never want to have an encounter with police officers ever. Never ever ever. It usually does not end well for me or anyone. Unless I thought the photograph was extremely compelling or meaningful, I would not have taken any, especially of a traffic stop. What is the value of the photo? To prove you have the right to do so? Is it interesting? Is it really worth the hassle you now have to deal with? Your assignment was night photography.... sound very broad to me.
Cops and people are corrupt all over the world, that is a fundamental aspect of human nature. We all bend and try to manipulate the rules to our advantages, and if you say you don't your full of it.
Life lesson: Sticking a camera in a cops face is usually a bad idea. 1) Because its annoying. 2) Because photos of a traffic stop are not interesting. 3) Because you never know when you are going to cross the wrong disgruntled police officer. 4) Its not worth unless there is real injustice taking place.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Like I've said, California is special when it comes to photography in shopping malls. The California State Constitution was interpreted by the SC of California as the common spaces in shopping malls are considered unrestricted public access (during operational hours) and so photography is permitted. Other states do not have such protection and if one were to "stand up" for your perceived right out here at the King of Prussia mall when security asked you to stop photographing, the police would be called and you'd be arrested.
No use debating a state law across borders and trying to apply it to the whole country.
Phil Forrest
Luke_Y
Member
These threads usually go the same direction, and I rarely comment. It's often the automatic assumption that the officer has a chip on his shoulder, when it could just as easily be the photographer.
But... Lets paint a different picture.
Officer conducts a nighttime car stop for unknown reason in what is described by a poster here as a not so great part of town in a city with a very high violent crime rate.
Our photography student heads out into the street while the officer is focused on conducting business, possibly anticipating an arrest from the car. Perhaps he startles and blinds the officer with an SB800 flash and some up close paparazzi style photography.
Officer barks at him to knock it off, back off, and get out of the street. Now half blind he is still trying to focus on the occupants of the car, worried about his own safety, the safety of the photographer, and the occupants of the car. But, maybe our photography student backs off a few feet and continues to flash him while mouthing about his right to do as he pleases in public whilst paying his salary.
Distracted and unable to conduct the business of the car stop and possible arrest safely, the officer again sternly rebukes the student tells him to knock it off, orders him out of the street, and tells him he is likely to end up in jail.
Perhaps our student takes his sweet time doing so, mouthing and flashing away the whole time, and ends up on the sidewalk on the other side of the car. From there he continues to flash the car, the officer and is running his mouth the whole time. Perhaps the car stop situation is escalating to an arrest or relatively dangerous situation while all this transpires.
OK, car stop business completed, the officer goes over and tells the student that he is under arrest and places hands on him. Student bucks up, tries pulling away and gets put on the pavement for his efforts. Girlfriend runs up starts pulling at the boyfriend/camera/officers and finds herself arrested for her efforts.
So did it happen that way? I have no idea. But, it's just as plausible and more likely to me than the general assumption that the police are thugs and college students always make good decisions. Just saying... Could it be that the officer was just a jerk? Yes, I acknowledge that as well. I just don't assume it.
Someone here pointed out that "For street photography and other activities, it's vital to increase one's situational appraisal skills.". Social and situational appraisal skills are often not a college students strong suit but I think that it is an applicable element in many of these situations.
But... Lets paint a different picture.
Officer conducts a nighttime car stop for unknown reason in what is described by a poster here as a not so great part of town in a city with a very high violent crime rate.
Our photography student heads out into the street while the officer is focused on conducting business, possibly anticipating an arrest from the car. Perhaps he startles and blinds the officer with an SB800 flash and some up close paparazzi style photography.
Officer barks at him to knock it off, back off, and get out of the street. Now half blind he is still trying to focus on the occupants of the car, worried about his own safety, the safety of the photographer, and the occupants of the car. But, maybe our photography student backs off a few feet and continues to flash him while mouthing about his right to do as he pleases in public whilst paying his salary.
Distracted and unable to conduct the business of the car stop and possible arrest safely, the officer again sternly rebukes the student tells him to knock it off, orders him out of the street, and tells him he is likely to end up in jail.
Perhaps our student takes his sweet time doing so, mouthing and flashing away the whole time, and ends up on the sidewalk on the other side of the car. From there he continues to flash the car, the officer and is running his mouth the whole time. Perhaps the car stop situation is escalating to an arrest or relatively dangerous situation while all this transpires.
OK, car stop business completed, the officer goes over and tells the student that he is under arrest and places hands on him. Student bucks up, tries pulling away and gets put on the pavement for his efforts. Girlfriend runs up starts pulling at the boyfriend/camera/officers and finds herself arrested for her efforts.
So did it happen that way? I have no idea. But, it's just as plausible and more likely to me than the general assumption that the police are thugs and college students always make good decisions. Just saying... Could it be that the officer was just a jerk? Yes, I acknowledge that as well. I just don't assume it.
Someone here pointed out that "For street photography and other activities, it's vital to increase one's situational appraisal skills.". Social and situational appraisal skills are often not a college students strong suit but I think that it is an applicable element in many of these situations.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
By the way...
By the way...
I forgot to mention the night photography assignment was supposed to be no-flash. Ambient light only.
Phil Forrest
By the way...
I forgot to mention the night photography assignment was supposed to be no-flash. Ambient light only.
Phil Forrest
rlouzan
Well-known
The picture was removed from the website, but it appears to have been taken with street/car lights only.
Luke_Y
Member
Well, that was sort of the point. The point being no one here knows exactly what transpired and a scenario in which the college kid is an idiot is just as likely as one that the officer is a thug (more likely to me).
But I don't think my point is any more off base than the rhetoric and hyperbole below.
For Christ's sake! You are literally telling us, that he was asking for it
redisburning
Well-known
yeah well actually Phil knows a lot more than you do, so while he may not know everything to try and just level the playing field by blowing it up is an unconvincing argument.
that is to say you dont get to play this card during an argument:
oh, and on a general note it is the responsibility of the people to investigate and illegal acts by the police (and government, and military).
rlouzan
Well-known
Luke_Y
Member
I understand... I just picked one alternate picture to paint. I think any of us could come up with a half dozen scenarios in which the college student legitimately ends up in jail. I just don't understand why most wont even consider it from another possible perspective. But would rather make the assumption that the police are always thugs and college students always make good decisions.
zauhar
Veteran
Luke_Y, you are 100% correct that none of us was there, and don't know exactly what happened. From that standpoint, no one should ever comment about anything they were not a direct witness to.
But I can testify that on two occasions a Philly cop has shouted at me to stop taking pictures. In neither case was I close enough to cause any interference to their activities, they just didn't want to be photographed. In one case the cop actually said "I don't give a sh-t about your press badge" which made me feel great! He thought I had a press credential!
I have plenty of sympathy for the cops and the lousy job they have, but I suspect this kid didn't "ask" to be roughed up.
Randy
But I can testify that on two occasions a Philly cop has shouted at me to stop taking pictures. In neither case was I close enough to cause any interference to their activities, they just didn't want to be photographed. In one case the cop actually said "I don't give a sh-t about your press badge" which made me feel great! He thought I had a press credential!
I have plenty of sympathy for the cops and the lousy job they have, but I suspect this kid didn't "ask" to be roughed up.
Randy
rlouzan
Well-known
No patrol car tape?
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