zauhar
Veteran
I think mall management can call the police to have you escorted off premises for ANY reason, just like you can call the cops if someone refuses to get off your front stoop.
In America, public space, and the space to exercise your constitutional rights, is rapidly evaporating.
Oh, I almost forgot, our "liberal" president just signed the NDAA, which means we no longer have constitutional rights to worry about.
Randy
Mr_Toad
Fluffy Marsupial
Kids these days...
Why can't they just take up a nighttime hobby that WON'T get them arrested.
Like...spotting, following, confronting, and shooting unarmed high school kids who walk through the neighborhood. (All in self-defense, of course.)
Why can't they just take up a nighttime hobby that WON'T get them arrested.
Like...spotting, following, confronting, and shooting unarmed high school kids who walk through the neighborhood. (All in self-defense, of course.)
zauhar
Veteran
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
mawilliams
Member
I interned at a daily paper back in college and we had a print hanging in the darkroom (yes it was the film days) of an enraged cop staring into the camera, pointing and yelling. The chief staff photographer thought it was pretty funny - had apparently been too close to the action to suit the cop, and the two had become rivals at accidents and crime scenes.
My take is that cops (representatives and enforcers of the inflexible, often inadequate rule of law) have to contend with us photographers - inquisitive, open-minded, boundary-pushing types. We are two inherently opposed groups. Course that's painting with a broad brush, but I figure there will always be tension between the two groups.
This is especially so because cops, given the very hard job that they do and the high stress level they live in every day are generally going to have a pretty short fuse. As we have seen from the recent U.S. atrocity in Afghanistan, if you subject human beings to years and years of extreme violence, stress, and fear for their lives, some of them are going to crack to some degree or another. I think it's important to remember that cops are people first and foremost, and the majority are doing the best they can to do things that most of us would fear to do. That said, I also feel it is a journalist and artist's calling to continue to ask questions, cross lines, and go the places the sworn to duty aren't allowed to go.
My take is that cops (representatives and enforcers of the inflexible, often inadequate rule of law) have to contend with us photographers - inquisitive, open-minded, boundary-pushing types. We are two inherently opposed groups. Course that's painting with a broad brush, but I figure there will always be tension between the two groups.
This is especially so because cops, given the very hard job that they do and the high stress level they live in every day are generally going to have a pretty short fuse. As we have seen from the recent U.S. atrocity in Afghanistan, if you subject human beings to years and years of extreme violence, stress, and fear for their lives, some of them are going to crack to some degree or another. I think it's important to remember that cops are people first and foremost, and the majority are doing the best they can to do things that most of us would fear to do. That said, I also feel it is a journalist and artist's calling to continue to ask questions, cross lines, and go the places the sworn to duty aren't allowed to go.
seakayaker1
Well-known
Since I do not make a living as a photojournalist, to be honest, if a police officer instructed me not to take photographs while they were making an arrest, I would stop. After the fact I would write a letter to the police department inquiring about their photography protocol and clarification, and possibly a complaint.
There is a time and a place for everything. As a student or photography enthusiast I am not going to start a discussion about my rights with an agitated police officer.
. . . . . when I have been pulled over for traffic violation, I also put my hands on the wheel in plain site of the officer and follow his instructions. Hell, I have no idea what kind of day he has had or his frame of mind. The public perception is that they should be professional at all times, and they should, but knowing human nature I would rather nick-pic the finer points after the fact. Being manhandled, handcuffed, a night in jail, court appearance, expense for a lawyer and possibly a court date to prove I am right at a moment in time is a decision that we can make on the spot the majority of time. I'm going for the de-esculation route and follow up after the fact, but thats just me.
It looks like it is in the lawyers hands now and will be interested read the outcome. Perhaps there will be a deal made and everyone just walks away, or . . . . . .
There is a time and a place for everything. As a student or photography enthusiast I am not going to start a discussion about my rights with an agitated police officer.
. . . . . when I have been pulled over for traffic violation, I also put my hands on the wheel in plain site of the officer and follow his instructions. Hell, I have no idea what kind of day he has had or his frame of mind. The public perception is that they should be professional at all times, and they should, but knowing human nature I would rather nick-pic the finer points after the fact. Being manhandled, handcuffed, a night in jail, court appearance, expense for a lawyer and possibly a court date to prove I am right at a moment in time is a decision that we can make on the spot the majority of time. I'm going for the de-esculation route and follow up after the fact, but thats just me.
It looks like it is in the lawyers hands now and will be interested read the outcome. Perhaps there will be a deal made and everyone just walks away, or . . . . . .
It's funny how this simple little thing will make the cop at ease and get you out of a ticket here and there.
anthony_semone
Established
Roger Hicks
Veteran
"The least touching of another in anger is battery" (Cole v. Turner, 1704, 6 Mod Rep 149, 90 ER 958),
Cheers,
R.
Highway 61
Revisited
1. You won the Godwin point by speaking of the Nazis
2. There are some sensible points in your post but my guess is that you have no precise idea of what the actual Gestapo did.
Comparison is no reason, especially when you cite any extreme case to justify what you say.
Otherwise, I don't disagree with what you wrote about the cops behaviour here and there. But - before being cops they're human beings so they can go off track like any of us do sometimes. Yet in their actual case the problem is that they have the law and force power while doing somewhat of a stressing job with lots of frustrations and some violence around most of the time.
Well well well. Hard to draw any general conclusions off a single case, uh ?
emraphoto
Veteran
And I do hope you support the journalists and artists that do. This is not a challenge or condemnation, I agree.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
This violation of a young photographer's rights is offensive I agree ... but lets not forget about all the non photographers who receive similar treatment from our law enforcers that never gets reported or noticed!
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
So, I just graduated from the program that Van Kuyk is in. He's at the beginning and it doesn't get any easier simply due to the number of assignments we are given and the nature of those assignments. I will say that the professor in question, while dedicated, can ask a little bit too much of his students.
The assignment is part of the basic photo class and the students aren't directed to specifically photograph police officers, they are just supposed to do night shots so what is photographed is open to whatever the student wants to do.
As for his arrest, I think it's BS but that neighborhood isn't the best (and definitely not the worst) in Philly. Add to that the recent tire slashings and our pole position of 84 murders this year so far and the police are probably a bit on edge. No, I'm not making an excuse for the police but I can see why they may act aggressively. We've had our problems in the past few years with bystanders photographing or using a cellphone or DV cam to record the actions of the PPD and those recordings caused a black eye for the department.
A few things to note in this commonwealth though:
Pennsylvania is a 2 party consent state with regard to recording audio and video. Not still photography but if any person being specifically recorded has not given their consent the recording person could be charged.
Within the city of Philly, the sidewalks are particularly "guarded" as a truly public place and while photographing from there is perfectly legal, it could also be interpreted that such an action on the sidewalk was either interfering in law enforcement or interfering in the use of the sidewalk by passers-by. This is how a bunch of the occupy Philly protesters got arrested.
Now, as for a shopping mall, California is a special state. They deemed shopping malls an extension of public places so you can photograph in the common spaces of a shopping mall in California but not in the individual stores. In the rest of the country (to the best of my knowledge) a shopping mall and the parking structure or lot surrounding it, is considered private property and a photographer would have to have the explicit consent of the mall owner/s to photograph or record there.
Mind you, I'm not an attorney but I've been studying law with regard to the media for a few years now.
Phil Forrest
The assignment is part of the basic photo class and the students aren't directed to specifically photograph police officers, they are just supposed to do night shots so what is photographed is open to whatever the student wants to do.
As for his arrest, I think it's BS but that neighborhood isn't the best (and definitely not the worst) in Philly. Add to that the recent tire slashings and our pole position of 84 murders this year so far and the police are probably a bit on edge. No, I'm not making an excuse for the police but I can see why they may act aggressively. We've had our problems in the past few years with bystanders photographing or using a cellphone or DV cam to record the actions of the PPD and those recordings caused a black eye for the department.
A few things to note in this commonwealth though:
Pennsylvania is a 2 party consent state with regard to recording audio and video. Not still photography but if any person being specifically recorded has not given their consent the recording person could be charged.
Within the city of Philly, the sidewalks are particularly "guarded" as a truly public place and while photographing from there is perfectly legal, it could also be interpreted that such an action on the sidewalk was either interfering in law enforcement or interfering in the use of the sidewalk by passers-by. This is how a bunch of the occupy Philly protesters got arrested.
Now, as for a shopping mall, California is a special state. They deemed shopping malls an extension of public places so you can photograph in the common spaces of a shopping mall in California but not in the individual stores. In the rest of the country (to the best of my knowledge) a shopping mall and the parking structure or lot surrounding it, is considered private property and a photographer would have to have the explicit consent of the mall owner/s to photograph or record there.
Mind you, I'm not an attorney but I've been studying law with regard to the media for a few years now.
Phil Forrest
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think that is similar here in OZ. To my understanding in these places that are privately owned but have public access, you are able to photograph until you are requested not to by the owners or management.
I had a run in with the law at a local shopping centre some time ago and spoke to the management of the shopping centre involved regarding their position re photography.
Jobin
Established
ka1axy
Member
I'll just leave this here
I'll just leave this here
http://boingboing.net/2012/03/27/city-of-boston-pays-170000-t.html
City of Boston just paid $170K to a lawyer who was convicted of "wiretapping" under a state law for videoing an arrest.
Federal appeals court said "no".
I'll just leave this here
http://boingboing.net/2012/03/27/city-of-boston-pays-170000-t.html
City of Boston just paid $170K to a lawyer who was convicted of "wiretapping" under a state law for videoing an arrest.
Federal appeals court said "no".
zauhar
Veteran
I admire your respect. Let us remember some members here may be law enforcement.
I understand fully the reaction of a cop to being photographed. If I was a cop I would not like being photographed while I was on duty. It is a stressful and dangerous job, and I admire those officers who carry out their duties to the best of their ability, even if imperfectly.
I also understand that my tax dollars pay their salary, and they are public servants. That means they while they are welcome to express their displeasure at my taking their photograph, they are not excused if they beat me up or take me on the fabled "nickel ride".
Look at it from this angle: People who work in nursing homes have very stressful and under-appreciated jobs. Many have limited incomes and opportunities and lead incredibly chaotic and stressful lives. This does not excuse them for beating up your mom or dad.
Randy
finguanzo
Well-known
"when I have been pulled over for traffic violation, I also put my hands on the wheel in plain site of the officer and follow his instructions."
Me too, I turn the car off, keys on the dash, hands on the wheel......
especially after I was pulled over once, and mentioned to the police officer I had a handgun in the car.. legally and all, I was coming back from a shooting range, but that didnt turn out to be a good day....
Me too, I turn the car off, keys on the dash, hands on the wheel......
especially after I was pulled over once, and mentioned to the police officer I had a handgun in the car.. legally and all, I was coming back from a shooting range, but that didnt turn out to be a good day....
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
For Christ's sake! You are literally telling us, that he was asking for it
No, I'm not...what I am saying is that he did things that allowed the officer to act in a fashion that he could justify to his superiors and they would back him up...
Using a tele from across the street...the officer cannot say you were interfering...you are nowhere near the action but can still photograph it.
Any kind of resistance will open the door for the officer to use force that he deems necessary to subdue you...yelling for you to Stop Resisting gives him the means to get away with it when the cameras are rolling...
Why is it that we constantly hear about police officers having a problem with people taking their picture while on duty but you never hear firefighters beating up photographers...both are civil servants...both are high risk/stressful jobs...both are there to serve and protect...
rlouzan
Well-known
I understand your point.
So, what's next? perhaps banning press photographers from making pictures of police officers from less than 30', 60', 90'...
perhaps 60' in NYC and 90' in California. You catch my drift?
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FS: Hand Made Leather Camera Wrist Straps
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...a-wrist-straps
So, what's next? perhaps banning press photographers from making pictures of police officers from less than 30', 60', 90'
... perhaps 60' in NYC and 90' in California. You catch my drift?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FS: Hand Made Leather Camera Wrist Straps
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/phot...a-wrist-straps