Casual Photographing at events - Is it poaching?

[batey_1020]

In the past few months i have been looking into equine photography. This is not so much of a passion but as something to keep me busy when my partner is riding at horse shows.
Im interested in shooting the events as something to keep me busy and also make a few bucks to cover the cost of going to the events. Now i know there are many people out there doing this but i figure im going to be there anyway.

My question is to those people out there who are professionals shooting full time. Not these events but event in general, Would you consider people doing this kind of thing poaching? I see a lot of equine photographers talking about it in this way.

I have the view that if the image quality is there and the product is worth the money then there is no problem with it as a legitimate part time business. I would how ever frown upon people who try to undercut the market of professionals.

Im interested in peoples opinions from all sorts of event shooting.

 

[Sylvester]

If they want pro pictures, then they'll hire pro photogs.
If they like the images you make, then why not.
But I would value my time a bit more than that...
I would certainly do it for a charity or something, but where they make profit, I want my part.

 

[bobbyrab]

Who will you be selling to? I photograph weddings and take the view that if my photographs are not better than the guests then I shouldn't be charging a fee. The other photographers you'r talking of, are they freelance?

 

[batey_1020]

Who will you be selling to? I photograph weddings and take the view that if my photographs are not better than the guests then I shouldn't be charging a fee. The other photographers you'r talking of, are they freelance?

Sorry i guess i didnt explain it properly in my first post.
Most events have a few photographers shooting as many riders as possible. Then selling via proofs on websites offering digital and prints something like a zenfolio set up.
I guess making money all comes down to marketing. I mean if the riders dont know who you are and how to contact you then you dont make any money.

I guess from what i have seen in my local market there are a lot of "average" quality images being sold. I think this is people making a quick buck by shooting as much as possible and only selling a few (numbers game). I know the images i have seen taking of my partner riding i wouldn't have paid for any of them.

 

[kokoshawnuff]

I know some of the pros may not like it, but competition is good in any field. Only pros who are insecure with their own abilities and quality of their work would really be worried when someone else (amateur or another pro) is shooting at the same event. If your photos (at an equal or similar price point) are preferred to those of pros (at any event), then I see nothing wrong with it.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

I wouldn't offer my images for sale because I'm not a professional (and wouldn't like anybody undercutting my niche). If I were in your place I would take the images and keep them for myself. Unless you're a pro, your credentials are as good as anyone's coming from the street.

 

[TXForester]

This is just a guess, but I'd say as long as they let anybody take photos including snapshots with phones, then there is nothing wrong here. If your photos are good and people want to buy them, then that is between you and your buyers. The only problem comes if the event has a contract with a pro. In that case you either can't take photos, or you can take them for personal use only. I'd bet if that is the case, then the event organizers would make that clear in some way. Maybe signs posted at the event entrances.

 

[bobbyrab]

The only way I can see that the other photographers would have any cause for complaint is if they pay a commission to the track owner. If not they're no different from anyone else pitching up and having a go. If you think you could do better then why not.

 

[nikon_sam]

Our daughter has been showing horses for the last 10 or 12 years...we've been to many of these Horse Shows and seen most of the Photographers that cover them...
I shoot mostly our daughter and the Barn she ride with...we know these people and they do like the images I come up with every so often...
I do not interfere with the Main Hired Photographer...he/she would be the only one allowed in the Main Ring during the competitions although I will shoot from the outer areas...
I mostly prefer the kinds of photos I get when the riders are warming up or back at their stables...these are the shots that the Hired Guy normally doesn't do...
I also know they charge a lot of money for the photos and I've heard of some placing ridicules restrictions on the use of their images, some will charge you an annual fee for using their images on your website or any other advertising you might do. I also have seen some that do very poor work but still get called back by the event organizers...
If you want to give it a go just take pictures of what you like and if they are worth showing to the Horse Folks I know they would be glad to pay you for your product...
I have given photos (B&W 5x7's) to people I've seen and shot at events and one of the first things they ask is "How much for the print?" They are so used to doling out cash for photos or anything else related to their sport...if you're looking to just recover your material cost then place a price on them that will cover it and everyone will be happy...
You never know what might happen if they continue to like your work verses the Guy they got right now...and I guarantee you the guy shooting right now knows he's got everyone by the balls because they will be buying photos of their horse at this show and every show they go to...Trust me on this...My daughter knows who the good photographers are and who are the bad ones...still she'll buy them just because it's her riding her Victory Lap with the Blue Ribbon and you gotta have a print of that...

 

[nikon_sam]

This is just a guess, but I'd say as long as they let anybody take photos including snapshots with phones, then there is nothing wrong here. If your photos are good and people want to buy them, then that is between you and your buyers. The only problem comes if the event has a contract with a pro. In that case you either can't take photos, or you can take them for personal use only. I'd bet if that is the case, then the event organizers would make that clear in some way. Maybe signs posted at the event entrances.

I have never had any problems with the Photographer brought in to cover the event nor with the Organizers...Just about everyone in the arena will have a camera and be using it...the only difference is that no one else would be allowed in the Ring during the Competition for the sole purpose of taking pictures...

 

[batey_1020]

I wouldn't offer my images for sale because I'm not a professional (and wouldn't like anybody undercutting my niche). If I were in your place I would take the images and keep them for myself. Unless you're a pro, your credentials are as good as anyone's coming from the street.

It may be that our view of a profesional shooter is different but not selling images because you are not aa pro makes it a little difficult to build a reputation doesn't it?
I would also argue that credentials don’t justify someone being a good photographer.
But i agree that people undercutting someone’s niche is unprofessional. Healthy competition is always good for the consumer however.

Our daughter has been showing horses for the last 10 or 12 years...we've been to many of these Horse Shows and seen most of the Photographers that cover them...
I shoot mostly our daughter and the Barn she ride with...we know these people and they do like the images I come up with every so often...
I do not interfere with the Main Hired Photographer...he/she would be the only one allowed in the Main Ring during the competitions although I will shoot from the outer areas...
I mostly prefer the kinds of photos I get when the riders are warming up or back at their stables...these are the shots that the Hired Guy normally doesn't do...
I also know they charge a lot of money for the photos and I've heard of some placing ridicules restrictions on the use of their images, some will charge you an annual fee for using their images on your website or any other advertising you might do. I also have seen some that do very poor work but still get called back by the event organizers...
If you want to give it a go just take pictures of what you like and if they are worth showing to the Horse Folks I know they would be glad to pay you for your product...
I have given photos (B&W 5x7's) to people I've seen and shot at events and one of the first things they ask is "How much for the print?" They are so used to doling out cash for photos or anything else related to their sport...if you're looking to just recover your material cost then place a price on them that will cover it and everyone will be happy...
You never know what might happen if they continue to like your work verses the Guy they got right now...and I guarantee you the guy shooting right now knows he's got everyone by the balls because they will be buying photos of their horse at this show and every show they go to...Trust me on this...My daughter knows who the good photographers are and who are the bad ones...still she'll buy them just because it's her riding her Victory Lap with the Blue Ribbon and you gotta have a print of that...

I value your comments since you seem to have a grasp to what im puzeling over and you seem to have done a bit of it yourself. Photography is my pasion and horses are hers (slowly becoming my 2nd). The idea of going there and just doing it seems to simple to me but to be honest i never know until i do just that.

I like that you say you enjoy shooting the warm up and the behind the scences stuff. Thats the moments i often shoot of my partner.

anyway so far im enjoying peoples views on this.

 

[batey_1020]

The only way I can see that the other photographers would have any cause for complaint is if they pay a commission to the track owner. If not they're no different from anyone else pitching up and having a go. If you think you could do better then why not.

This is exactly the kind of thoughts i am after. If i was the one who is paying to have the ability to shoot there as a sole shooter i would want to protec my job also.

i guess if i do go down the tack of ligitmently selling photographs from these shows its an avenue i need to look at. Contacting the events organisers and doing it properly.
Hey for all i care i would jump on as a free assistant to who ever is there. I might learn a thing or two.

 

[x-ray]

I know some of the pros may not like it, but competition is good in any field. Only pros who are insecure with their own abilities and quality of their work would really be worried when someone else (amateur or another pro) is shooting at the same event. If your photos (at an equal or similar price point) are preferred to those of pros (at any event), then I see nothing wrong with it.

This is precisely the attitude that's bleeding the pro market by ten thousand cuts. I can see from the remarks that none are pros.

I do not shoot events and never have but have been a pro for forty six years. There's mention of doing it as a legitimate business. Ok if you want to be legitimate then get your state sales tax number, collect and pay sales tax, get your federal ID, pay state tax, county and city taxes, personal property tax, get your liability insurance and be a legit pro. If you're not doing that then stop doing it. You're operating outside the law and should be turned into your state department of revenue. Many state professional organizations are doing just that.

Undercutting if everyone is on a level playing field is ok and that's what competition is. If your undercutting and not operating within the law then you're poaching. Pros that dislike poachers aren't afraid of competition or insecure. We just dislike those that destroy the market and deal under the table. Go legit and see how cheap you can sell your work.

Think of the effect of every pro and amateur selling work and not collecting and paying taxes. Taxes pay for your roads, police, fire department, public health, schools, recreation like parks and many more services. No tax revenue no services.

Let the guys trying to hack out a living and operate within the law do their jobs. Do your photography for your partner and allow those that have made a life long commitment to photography make a living.

 

[benlees]

I think you need to figure out what you would offer that hasn't been already. If you really think you can offer something new and better, then go for it. But, not everything needs to be a chance to make money.

 

[FrankS]

Charge as much as the pros do, and allow the buyer to choose based on the merit of the images, not a cut rate price.

 

[batey_1020]

This is precisely the attitude that's bleeding the pro market by ten thousand cuts. I can see from the remarks that none are pros.

I do not shoot events and never have but have been a pro for forty six years. There's mention of doing it as a legitimate business. Ok if you want to be legitimate then get your state sales tax number, collect and pay sales tax, get your federal ID, pay state tax, county and city taxes, personal property tax, get your liability insurance and be a legit pro. If you're not doing that then stop doing it. You're operating outside the law and should be turned into your state department of revenue. Many state professional organizations are doing just that.

I totally agree with this and think of doing business any other way is incorrect. I have always looked at it from the insurance point of view and not from a taxation point of view. different laws in our countries so i cant comment on the set up in your country and compare it to my own. And im sure there are many many "pros" pout there doing cash jobs under the table. I see this in my current industry and im sure it is a part of every industry (not saying its the way to do business).

Undercutting if everyone is on a level playing field is ok and that's what competition is. If your undercutting and not operating within the law then you're poaching. Pros that dislike poachers aren't afraid of competition or insecure. We just dislike those that destroy the market and deal under the table. Go legit and see how cheap you can sell your work.

Thats exactly the opinion i value. There is such a thing as good fair competition.
Don't take anything i said previously as me saying images are to expensive. I think its total opposite that the consumer doesn't value the time that goes into making them.

Think of the effect of every pro and amateur selling work and not collecting and paying taxes. Taxes pay for your roads, police, fire department, public health, schools, recreation like parks and many more services. No tax revenue no services.
Let the guys trying to hack out a living and operate within the law do their jobs. Do your photography for your partner and allow those that have made a life long commitment to photography make a living.

Im curious as to what you perscive as a "pro". I have never agreed with the tag for people working in the industry and your post got me thinking more that we should be looking at it from people running a legitiment buisness rather then labeling them with the "pro" tag.

 

[x-ray]

Pro doesn't equate with quality. It simply means that person is collecting money and operating as a business. I've seen bad work from pros and great work from amateurs. Amateur isn't a degrading term, it simply means they aren't operating as a business.

Thanks for your comments. This has had some but not a great deal of impact on my commercial work. On the other hand my friends that are wedding and portrait photographers have been crippled by people with a camera trying to make a few bucks. I know one person in my community that went out of business after three decades because of this. It happened before the economy tanked too.

Like i said this has had very little impact on my business and will be retiring in a little over a year. Even though I'll be out of it soon I still hate seeing the photo industry gutted by folks trying to make bucks this way. One or two people shooting and selling under the table, no problem but multiply it by thousands. Get the idea?

 

[batey_1020]

Pro doesn't equate with quality. It simply means that person is collecting money and operating as a business.

That gets lost in traslation far to often with in photography and i think it gets blurd in with the whole sporting pro being elit and all that.

I think the loss of buisness in wedding photography is rising more and more. All you have to do is type into google and your local area to see how many people are there. Its a shame that 10 years ago the good weding phographers may have been morea afordable. But now its so hard to find them amungst the sea of people who did a weekend course and spend $5000 on gear and $100 on a website.

I saw in another topic here that your selling a fair amount of corporate images and thats a lot of your buisness. I have some family in corporate developing and often feel very dissapointed when i find they went to the local chain store like IKEA and bought a bucnh of prints for there buildings. I always try to pursuade them to go to artist and get the real deal but it never happens :-( they might one day see the value in it i hope. (thats a little off topic though)

 

[x-ray]

That gets lost in traslation far to often with in photography and i think it gets blurd in with the whole sporting pro being elit and all that.

I think the loss of buisness in wedding photography is rising more and more. All you have to do is type into google and your local area to see how many people are there. Its a shame that 10 years ago the good weding phographers may have been morea afordable. But now its so hard to find them amungst the sea of people who did a weekend course and spend $5000 on gear and $100 on a website.

I saw in another topic here that your selling a fair amount of corporate images and thats a lot of your buisness. I have some family in corporate developing and often feel very dissapointed when i find they went to the local chain store like IKEA and bought a bucnh of prints for there buildings. I always try to pursuade them to go to artist and get the real deal but it never happens :-( they might one day see the value in it i hope. (thats a little off topic though)

I've fortunately never worked with the public and only worked on a corporate level. That's difficult enough, trust me.

I'm speculating here but at the rate corporations are merging and going out of business or even out of the US Plus the explosion in individuals with a camera working out of the trunk of their car, I don't think we'll see many surviving studios of any size other than large ones in major cities in about five years. One very major commercial photographer in another city has had to resort to family portraits for the ultra wealthy. Very sad!!! This will come back and bite the once users of commercial photography. When they eventually need a studio and quality work there won't be any locally.

 

[thegman]

In the past few months i have been looking into equine photography. This is not so much of a passion but as something to keep me busy when my partner is riding at horse shows.
Im interested in shooting the events as something to keep me busy and also make a few bucks to cover the cost of going to the events. Now i know there are many people out there doing this but i figure im going to be there anyway.

My question is to those people out there who are professionals shooting full time. Not these events but event in general, Would you consider people doing this kind of thing poaching? I see a lot of equine photographers talking about it in this way.

I have the view that if the image quality is there and the product is worth the money then there is no problem with it as a legitimate part time business. I would how ever frown upon people who try to undercut the market of professionals.

Im interested in peoples opinions from all sorts of event shooting.

I would say don't worry about undercutting the market for professionals. Markets should be competitive, if people decide to buy your photos not theirs, it's the professionals' problem, not yours. Nobody has the "right" to work, free of competition.

Many professions have to compete with amateurs, not just photography, it's just a part of doing business.