Leica LTM Were Leica factory conversions issued with a certificate?

[johannielscom]

While selling a factory conversion Leica, an interested party pointed out that the factory conversions allegedly had a certificate that stated what the conversion was, or what model the camera ended up as after the conversion?

I have never heard of such a certificate but I'm fairly confident I don't know everything either


Does any of the conversion collectors have a camera with such a certificate, and can you show what it looks like?


8CB0DDBE-27A1-4E20-ABCD-A390E62E1455_1_105_c by Johan Niels Kuiper, on Flickr

 

[Bill Blackwell]

While selling a factory conversion Leica, an interested party pointed out that the factory conversions allegedly had a certificate that stated what the conversion was, or what model the camera ended up as after the conversion?

I have never heard of such a certificate but I'm fairly confident I don't know everything either ...

I've never heard or seen such a "certificate" either. I believe the best you're going to achieve is a receipt or invoice covering the conversion.

 

[johannielscom]

I've never heard or seen such a "certificate" either. I believe the best you're going to achieve is a receipt or invoice covering the conversion.

Yeah I thought so myself but was of course willing to be proven wrong!

I wonder if such a receipt or invoice is mistakenly referred to as a 'certificate' here? I've never seen a conversion camera with its matching invoice or receipt, does anyone have one of these to show?

 

[Nitroplait]

I hang out on a Leica Historica forum and have never seen certificates or invoices related to a conversion - it must be extremely rare that original invoices are kept, as these cameras must have had several owners by now - probably users who didn't care. Collectors didn't use to be particularly interested in converted Leica's thus the motivation to seek out the original paper work was low and likely lost when the camera changed owner.

The SN lists available online are fairly reliable when it comes to ID what the camera model was, and from there is fairly obvious to see what was done.
Only Leica did conversions, except for flash sync which is very obvious when done by 3rd parties.

One can send an inquiry with the SN to the Leica Factory and have them check their records, but you usually just get the same in as is publicly available - in rare cases you get a little extra, like to what shop the original camera was delivered or maybe a date for the conversion, but mostly one is not that lucky - at least in my experience.

 

[Dralowid]

Never heard of a 'Certificate'. I had a sales receipt once but that was for the camera in its original state, not when converted.

As Nitroplait says, enquiries don't get very far.

Cameras that have been converted more than once throw a spanner in the works as do those assembled from various parts (Mortimer Street Specials) or those with replacement tops whose s/n does not match the one on the chassis.

The OP's camera looks very nice. I'd suggest it is a 'later' conversion since they have run out of II shells and are using III shells with the slow speed blanking plate. 'Later than what' you might ask, I don't know! That the lettering shows signs of going slightly green suggests (to me at least) that it has not been repainted in recent times. Post war conversions are not difficult to repaint well unlike pre war versions with Woods Metal filled engraving.

I'm not sure why but one often finds post war conversions in excellent condition, almost as if the owner had his (or hers) beloved old Leica converted and then along came the new fangled M3 which he just had to have......

 

[raydm6]

I am wondering if Leitz (in their archives) possess a factory log book which recorded conversions. That would be interesting to see.

 

[Dralowid]

I am wondering if Leitz (in their archives) possess a factory log book which recorded conversions. That would be interesting to see.

Years ago they told me that no information was available.

A conversion would most likely have been dealt with in the same way as a service. There would have been a receipt.

 

[raydm6]

Years ago they told me that no information was available.

A conversion would most likely have been dealt with in the same way as a service. There would have been a receipt.

Interesting. Thank you for that.

I just did a search and found this interesting article by Jason Schneider that supports your comment:
‘Stealth’ Leica Factory Upgrades
https://www.lhsa.org/blog/2021/08/st...ctory-upgrades

And , this comment from a SOLD listing at Meister Camera:
"...the number of factory conversions is not exactly recorded"

Additionally the OP johannielscom wrote an article and this comment here adds a twist:

In the 1930s and 1940s it was quite common for repairmen to upgrade cameras outside the factory-offered upgrade program. Especially in England in the 1940s where during the war there was no option to have your Leica sent to Wetzlar for an upgrade. So it is possible that the upgrades on the body were performed by a non-Leitz trained repairman, from his stock of original repair parts. That would explain the strange mix ‘n match of features. Another option is that the camera at one point was upgraded to a Leica III by Leitz in Wetzlar, and at a later stage was stripped from it’s worn paint and re-chromed by another repairman. The nickel parts seem to support this. It would mean a first conversion by the Leitz factory in Wetzlar to a black paint with nickel Leica III. And subsequently a later conversion to a chrome camera by a non-Leitz repairman, who also installed a more modern flash sync on the front of the body.

Very interesting and I didn't know this.

The only thing I could find were a sales certificates and a very interesting itemized US Military authorization certificate to posses captured equipment. Also very interesting it includes a Summitar and various Zeiss Sonnar lenses:

 

[Dralowid]

The reference to cameras 'converted' or made up from parts in England during the war refers to the "Mortimer Street Specials'. The Leitz offices in London were in Mortimer Street.

 

[Dralowid]

...and in the 'conversions' thread in the LTM section you will find a price list for the different options. (It has been quiet of late)

 

[johannielscom]

Interesting. Thank you for that.

I just did a search and found this interesting article by Jason Schneider that supports your comment:
‘Stealth’ Leica Factory Upgrades
https://www.lhsa.org/blog/2021/08/st...ctory-upgrades

And , this comment from a SOLD listing at Meister Camera:
"...the number of factory conversions is not exactly recorded"

Additionally the OP johannielscom wrote an article and this comment here adds a twist:
"In the 1930s and 1940s it was quite common for repairmen to upgrade cameras outside the factory-offered upgrade program. Especially in England in the 1940s where during the war there was no option to have your Leica sent to Wetzlar for an upgrade. So it is possible that the upgrades on the body were performed by a non-Leitz trained repairman, from his stock of original repair parts. That would explain the strange mix ‘n match of features. Another option is that the camera at one point was upgraded to a Leica III by Leitz in Wetzlar, and at a later stage was stripped from it’s worn paint and re-chromed by another repairman. The nickel parts seem to support this. It would mean a first conversion by the Leitz factory in Wetzlar to a black paint with nickel Leica III. And subsequently a later conversion to a chrome camera by a non-Leitz repairman, who also installed a more modern flash sync on the front of the body."


Very interesting and I didn't know this.

However, that was about a different camera than the one shown above, I must point out. That camera was very interesting too, but it already sold last February.

The only thing I could find were a sales certificates and a very interesting itemized US Military authorization certificate to posses captured equipment. Also very interesting it includes a Summitar and various Zeiss Sonnar lenses:

Thanks for posting these, very interesting! I've never seen a document like that one before but I reckon they weren't issued much anyhow

 

[David Hughes]

I dunno about Leicas being converted by anyone in the UK during the war. Cameras were urgently needed by the armed forces and film was scare. Here's the front cover of a magazine in 1943.



I've also seen adverts from Kodak asking for spools and backing paper for re-use, so I guess things were pretty bad.

Regards, David

 

[Erik van Straten]

Leicas that were taken abroad were often - before the war - marked by the importer so that it was clear in which country the camera was purchased and that tax had been paid on it in the home country. This marking was accompanied by a declaration written by customs. I have such a branded camera (a Leica II) and the accompanying statement that the camera was bought in The Netherlands (in 1932) if my memory serves me well.

Erik.

 

[Dralowid]

When I was very much younger one would always take the receipt for the camera when going on holiday to prove where purchased and no duty payable on return.

 

[David Hughes]

Leicas that were taken abroad were often - before the war - marked by the importer so that it was clear in which country the camera was purchased and that tax had been paid on it in the home country. This marking was accompanied by a declaration written by customs. I have such a branded camera (a Leica II) and the accompanying statement that the camera was bought in The Netherlands (in 1932) if my memory serves me well.

Erik.

Leica in London and New York in the 30's (I think) issued a little signed card with a statement on it that tax, duty etc had been paid on the camera and lens; both identiied by their serial numbers. The little card fitted into the pocket in the ERC. I've one or two somewhere; the pocket also held the exposure guide and a little plastic card for notes to be written on. Again, I've one or two somewhere and FED/Zorki also gave a little plastic note card with the camera that fitted into a similar ERC pocket.

Regards, David