Bladt
Newbie
I'd like to know which rangefinder woul be quiet enough for music and theater. Preferably on that can carry a 90-135mm lens for close-ups. No wideangles or namal lenses are wanted.
So far I've only found Leica and Contax G, which I can't afford. And then Agfa Ambi Silette, which is hard to find in working order.
PS: Why does RFF not have a "Create a Posting" button on the front page?
So far I've only found Leica and Contax G, which I can't afford. And then Agfa Ambi Silette, which is hard to find in working order.
PS: Why does RFF not have a "Create a Posting" button on the front page?
The RFF front page is a custom view across forums. Threads are created within a Forum.
I saw the other post that you are interested in a Canon P.
The Canon 100mm F2 would be a good selection for theater work. The Nikon 8.5cm F2 and 10.5cm F2.5 are also good choices, cost about 1/2 that of the Canon. The focal length is close enough to 100mm to use these on a Canon P.
I saw the other post that you are interested in a Canon P.
The Canon 100mm F2 would be a good selection for theater work. The Nikon 8.5cm F2 and 10.5cm F2.5 are also good choices, cost about 1/2 that of the Canon. The focal length is close enough to 100mm to use these on a Canon P.
Cascadilla
Well-known
If you can deal with a separate viewfinder for your telephoto lens after focusing through the regular viewfinder, a Contax IIa is almost as quiet as Leica M series cameras, which are pretty much the gold stand for low noise. The Zeiss 85 mm f/2 Sonnar is an excellent lens and would be good for this kind of work. There is also a finder mask made for the Contax IIa and IIIa that would allow you to focus snd compose through the same viewfinder, although with a smaller view, especially for the 135. Is there a particular reason why you want to shoot film for this? As someone who shot theater performance dress rehearsals for many years on both film and digital, I can tell you that the easy use of higher ISOs with theater lighting made the job a whole lot easier. And even the quietest of film cameras will still be questionable for surrounding audience members if you are shooting during an actual performance as opposed to a dress rehearsal where the only people to be annoyed will be the actors.
Dralowid
Michael
You need something with a leaf shutter.
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
@Bladt, if you're considering a 135mm lens, don't get a Canon P.
Here's an RF accuracy chart from @splitimageview:
The Canon P will struggle with a 90mm at f/2, and can't be relied upon to focus a 135/3.5 or 135/4 wide open; same with a Contax IIa due to the shorter RF baselength. And, if you're shooting music and theatre, you're going to be using them wide open.
Based purely on the use of long lenses, I'd be looking at a Leica III, Leica M3, Contax II, Kiev 4, or any of the early Canons with the multi-position viewfinder set to 1.5x magnification. Yes, with anything other than the M3 you'd be using an external viewfinder, but that's really not the problem people often make it out to be.
Arguably the best option would be an M3 with the goggled 135mm f/2.8 Elmarit (extra low light capability + focusing accuracy), but that's probably out of your budget.
As for shutter noise: that's going to depend a LOT on the condition of the camera. My Leica IIIf sounds a lot louder than my IIIg; my Contax IIa sounds a lot louder than my Contax II. This is just down to wear-and-tear and bad services they've had in the past (the IIIf was noticeably and worryingly louder after Aperture in London got their hands on it). That said, the Contax and Contax-based shutters are a lot louder at slow speeds than the Leica-derived shutters, so I'd write those off as an option anyway.
For my money: a Leica III, a Canon 135/3.5, and a good quality dedicated 135mm finder. You could do a lot with that and the outlay wouldn't cost you much compared to some of the other options.
Here's an RF accuracy chart from @splitimageview:
The Canon P will struggle with a 90mm at f/2, and can't be relied upon to focus a 135/3.5 or 135/4 wide open; same with a Contax IIa due to the shorter RF baselength. And, if you're shooting music and theatre, you're going to be using them wide open.
Based purely on the use of long lenses, I'd be looking at a Leica III, Leica M3, Contax II, Kiev 4, or any of the early Canons with the multi-position viewfinder set to 1.5x magnification. Yes, with anything other than the M3 you'd be using an external viewfinder, but that's really not the problem people often make it out to be.
Arguably the best option would be an M3 with the goggled 135mm f/2.8 Elmarit (extra low light capability + focusing accuracy), but that's probably out of your budget.
As for shutter noise: that's going to depend a LOT on the condition of the camera. My Leica IIIf sounds a lot louder than my IIIg; my Contax IIa sounds a lot louder than my Contax II. This is just down to wear-and-tear and bad services they've had in the past (the IIIf was noticeably and worryingly louder after Aperture in London got their hands on it). That said, the Contax and Contax-based shutters are a lot louder at slow speeds than the Leica-derived shutters, so I'd write those off as an option anyway.
For my money: a Leica III, a Canon 135/3.5, and a good quality dedicated 135mm finder. You could do a lot with that and the outlay wouldn't cost you much compared to some of the other options.
First choose the forum in which you want your post to appear, and you'll see a button to create a new thread.
DownUnder
Nikon Nomad
The Contax G1 is far from "unaffordable". The G2 is the newer of the pair, so more expensive. Not so the G1.
A G1/90 combo can easily be < $1000, leaving you $$ aplenty for film.
The shutter is fairly quiet, but in some well-used models the film winding/rewinding is noisy. One of my two - I had four at one time but common sense eventually prevailed - was annoyingly loud when rewinding. I had it serviced (CLA) and it's now heaps quieter.
A minus is it's an old camera, mid-1990s. Any Leica you can buy on a similar budget will be older.
The G Zeiss 90/2.8 Sonnar is the cheapest lens in the line. It has a 'mixed 'reputation, some like it, others decry its so-so focusing. I've owned two - both excellent, I gave away one and I still have the second - and both consistently performed well, tho' focusing has to be spot-on accurate or it can wander off the subject.
Obviously, the G line isn't your only choice, but it's a viable one. Heaps cheaper than a Leica which will be older and more expensive, or an ancient (1950s) Agfa 120 folder which you'll find entirely unsuitable for your chosen area of photography.
A G1/90 combo can easily be < $1000, leaving you $$ aplenty for film.
The shutter is fairly quiet, but in some well-used models the film winding/rewinding is noisy. One of my two - I had four at one time but common sense eventually prevailed - was annoyingly loud when rewinding. I had it serviced (CLA) and it's now heaps quieter.
A minus is it's an old camera, mid-1990s. Any Leica you can buy on a similar budget will be older.
The G Zeiss 90/2.8 Sonnar is the cheapest lens in the line. It has a 'mixed 'reputation, some like it, others decry its so-so focusing. I've owned two - both excellent, I gave away one and I still have the second - and both consistently performed well, tho' focusing has to be spot-on accurate or it can wander off the subject.
Obviously, the G line isn't your only choice, but it's a viable one. Heaps cheaper than a Leica which will be older and more expensive, or an ancient (1950s) Agfa 120 folder which you'll find entirely unsuitable for your chosen area of photography.
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Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
Nah. A Leica III will run about £250 for one in perfect condition, an LTM 135 will be no more than £150, and a viewfinder will be around £50. £450 total for a full Leica kit for 135mm use.
Add an extra £150 or £200 for a 90mm Elmar + finder and you're still under $1k USD (but around $1.2k AUD); you could probably get the Elmar alone for just £100 and save a bit of extra money if you picked up/were happy settling with a VIOOH instead of dedicated 90mm and 135mm finders.
What's the Contax G line like for servicing/longevity, anyway? Are they subject to being written-off as unrepairable like a lot of other cameras of that era?
JeffS7444
Well-known
Depends on just how quiet you need to be: If you can time your shots to coincide with louder musical passages or noisier scenes, you may have a considerable amount of leeway. But if whisper-quiet is needed, I know of no film camera that can compete with a modern digital camera with e-shutter.
BillBingham2
Registered User
Right now there is a Rangefinder from Kodak, a Retina Iic I believe in the classified from an EXCELLENT member. You can get an 80/4 front lens replacement (to the normal lens) for about $50 or so on EvilBay. It's a between the lens shutter that is very very quiet.
I found the shutter on my Leica IIIc to also be very quiet with a never-ready case bottom on it. A wonder 90/4 from Leica, 85/2 from Nikon, and a wide range of glass in LTM that will work.
Best of luck.
I found the shutter on my Leica IIIc to also be very quiet with a never-ready case bottom on it. A wonder 90/4 from Leica, 85/2 from Nikon, and a wide range of glass in LTM that will work.
Best of luck.
Nikkor 8.5cm F2, wide-Open on the Bessa R2. From 2007, a Grade-School dance for my Daughters school. The kids were not still.
A Canon 7 has a wider RF base, but has a 0.8x viewfinder magnification. No problems focusing a Canon 100/2 wide-open on it.
The Canon P: no problems with a Nikkor 85/2. The Nikkor is shorter than the Canon telephotos. The Canon 100/2 lens, being longer and used with a Hood: can interfere with the RF window.
A Canon 7 has a wider RF base, but has a 0.8x viewfinder magnification. No problems focusing a Canon 100/2 wide-open on it.
The Canon P: no problems with a Nikkor 85/2. The Nikkor is shorter than the Canon telephotos. The Canon 100/2 lens, being longer and used with a Hood: can interfere with the RF window.
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boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
If you want quiet your choices are leaf shutters and electronic shutters. Focal planes are loud, period. Electronic have problems. They can introduce a "rolling shutter" effect and can show banding in artificial light. So shooting indoor theater with electronic is kind of out for you. Leaf shutter is what you have to work with. And here we come to the old stock car racing question, "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?" Current leaf shutter digitals are pricey AFIK. If you can be satisfied with older film cameras those are cheaper.
Get a clear idea of what it is you want to do and then look in your wallet. There is a lot of solid experience here and many who can offer good advice. Good luck, have a lot of fun shooting.
Get a clear idea of what it is you want to do and then look in your wallet. There is a lot of solid experience here and many who can offer good advice. Good luck, have a lot of fun shooting.
The classic leaflet rangefinder cameras: Kodak Retina IIIS, the Tele-Arton 85/4 is a fine lens, but close focus to 6ft and it is too slow for dim light. The earlier Retina Folding cameras with an interchangeable front element are almost impossible to use with a moving subject. You must measure the distance using the rangefinder, and then set the focus using a look-up-table. The telephoto is an 80mm F4. The Voigtlander Prominent has the 100mm F4.5 Dynaron. Slow for existing light for theater. These cameras have fast-fifties, which you do not want. I own each of these. okay, more than one of each of these.
Back to a Canon P or Canon 7 with a Nikkor 8.5cm F2 for a less expensive option. Use a half-case with the camera to dampen the sound.
Back to a Canon P or Canon 7 with a Nikkor 8.5cm F2 for a less expensive option. Use a half-case with the camera to dampen the sound.
wlewisiii
Just another hotel clerk
I shot a classical music concert with a Leica IIIf and a Summitar. Pure natural light and the conductor gave his approval after listening to the soft snick of the shutter. Leaf shutters are a tiny bit quieter - certainly my Rollei would be - but not enough to get excited about. The Canon P would be similar I would think. Edit to add: The half case Brian mentions is a good idea too.
Get a nice set of Canon 35/2, 50/1.8 & 100/3.5 to go with a P and you'd be ready to do anything a rangefinder is good for.
Get a nice set of Canon 35/2, 50/1.8 & 100/3.5 to go with a P and you'd be ready to do anything a rangefinder is good for.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Film or digital? Which way do you want to go. I have read film is better. It is expensive and difficult. Choices, choices, choices.
And, bottom line, budget?
And, bottom line, budget?
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DownUnder
Nikon Nomad
A user perfect LTM for two hundred fifty quid? Lead us to it. There will be a long line of followers.
The last 135 Elmar I've seen on sale (not so many of those in Australia) is going for AUD $395. At AUD $0.60 cents/US$1 the current value of the South Pacific Peso, that's US $240. So yeh, a bargain. Ditto a 90/4.0 Elmar in VG+ condition, same price. Fuji X owners love the ld M lenses for B&W. Summicron 50s in so-so condition leap off the shelves for AUD $1500. Not so good a deal. 35s or 28s,, forget it, prices are in the lower levels of heaven.
From long experience and that of friends, I reckon G1s go forever. Some have digital data 'bleeding' but that's cosmetic and doesn't impact on anything crucial. More likely the rewind will eventually go south, as happened to one of mine - I solved that by pushing the button on the bottom plate with an old Kodak Autographic camera stylus, and the rewind clicks in just fine. So I'm good - for the moment.
G cameras are long in the tooth and inevitably spare parts have to be cannibalised. This said, in Melbourne a CLA for a Leica of the same vintage (and LTMs are older) costs AUD $650+, often a long, long way more +. For which cost you can easily acquire another G1 from the usual online suspects, for AUD $300-$450 - if you can find a good one. They are there, but you have to look hard.
Sensibly speaking, the OP would be best off with a newer secondhand Lumix or Olympus and a 90 equivalent tele, maybe Sigma. Needs must.
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Darinwc
Well-known
For low light I would say just get a digital. There are great older point and shoots with fast lenses and high iso.
But if you really want to shoot film. Here are some other thoughts.
Canon pellix. No mirror slr. Not sure how quiet it is but I always wanted to try one.
Kodak retina iia. Not a telephoto, but a fast f2 lens and super quiet operation. I think one of the quietest I've ever owned.
Canon photura or Olympus is-1.. telephoto lenses in a quiet point and shoot. Haven't tried one but always curious how they were.
Mamiya c3 with 180mm. Slow lens but with fast film you can worry less about grain.
But if you really want to shoot film. Here are some other thoughts.
Canon pellix. No mirror slr. Not sure how quiet it is but I always wanted to try one.
Kodak retina iia. Not a telephoto, but a fast f2 lens and super quiet operation. I think one of the quietest I've ever owned.
Canon photura or Olympus is-1.. telephoto lenses in a quiet point and shoot. Haven't tried one but always curious how they were.
Mamiya c3 with 180mm. Slow lens but with fast film you can worry less about grain.
Mackinaw
Think Different
Coldkennels
Barnack-toting Brit.
I can do even better:
eBay prices in the UK are terrible, and quality is suspect at best, but there's a couple of dealers always worth keeping an eye on - often the prices are lower, and the condition reports are more accurate.
Even Red Dot, generally priced on the high side, can get you into a Leica for less than £250:
As for...
M mount 135mm will typically run you a little more than the LTM ones - but we're talking LTM here, so we can save a bit of cash. Early and uncoated 135mm Hektor, you can usually slide under £100:
Later and coated is where you're going to spend more;
So yeah, I stand behind my earlier post. Leica III, 135mm Hektor, and a viewfinder for £350. Job's a good 'un!
