Does Voigtlander optimize their mirrorless lenses based on M designs?

[Archiver]

Since the mirrorless revolution picked up speed, Voigtlander began to offer a number of their M mount lenses in Sony E. The first was the Nokton Classic 35mm f1.4 which was originally designed for film rangefinders. In later years, Voigtlander now has a wide range of M lenses in Sony E mount. But since M lenses are optimized for Leica M bodies, and they don't perform as well on mirrorless bodies, particularly Sony E, are the mirrorless versions fully optimized for each intended lens mount? Or are the newer designs more forgiving with mirrorless bodies and are therefore ported with little to no change apart from lens mount and flange distance?

 

[mrtoml]

FWIW according to ChatGPT:

Voigtländer does not simply re-use or port their M-mount (Leica) lens designs for Sony E-mount mirrorless cameras. While there may be some optical similarities or shared design principles across mounts for certain lenses, Voigtländer optimizes their E-mount lenses specifically for Sony mirrorless systems. Here’s a breakdown of how they handle it:

1. Dedicated Optical Design for E-Mount​

• Voigtländer E-mount lenses are not just adapted M-mount optics; many are optically redesigned to account for:
  • Shorter flange distance (18mm for E-mount vs. 27.8mm for M-mount)
  • Sensor stack differences (Sony sensors typically have a thicker sensor cover glass than Leica)
  • Electronic communication with Sony bodies (metadata, IBIS integration, focus magnification support, etc.)

2. Native Electronics​

• E-mount lenses often include CPU chips and electronic contacts, which M-mount lenses do not. This allows for:
  • EXIF data transmission
  • Automatic lens correction profiles in-camera
  • In-body image stabilization (IBIS) compatibility
  • Focus assist functions

3. Examples of Unique E-Mount Designs​

• Voigtländer 65mm f/2 Macro APO-Lanthar: Designed specifically for E-mount with no M-mount equivalent.
• 50mm f/2 APO-Lanthar E-mount version: While a similar lens exists in M-mount, the optical formula was adapted for Sony’s sensor stack and digital characteristics.

4. Physical Design Differences​

• Barrel design, focus throw, aperture click/de-click mechanisms, and haptics are tuned for E-mount use cases.

Summary:​

While Voigtländer may draw inspiration or heritage from classic M-mount lenses, their Sony E-mount lenses are optimized from the ground up to take full advantage of modern mirrorless features, especially the sensor stack and digital integration.

If you're shooting Sony, it's generally best to go with the native E-mount versions rather than adapting M lenses — even Voigtländers — due to these optimizations.

 

[Archiver]

@mrtoml I'm not sure whether to laugh, because it never occurs to me to ask ChatGPT questions like this. If Voigtlander does indeed optimize their mirrorless lenses for each mount, I wish they would join the L mount alliance and release these lenses in L mount versions!

 

[mrtoml]

Yes I wish they would say where the information came from. It would also be great to see some Voigtlander L mount lenses.

 

[mapgraphs]

I haven't seen any facts from Cosina stating that the optical formulas are different between mounts, where a particular lens is first offered in M mount. I've seen speculation about the placement of elements or groups changing, but I haven't seen any facts supporting this.

In terms of element/group placement From my own usage, I know that changing the registration distance of a lens from the sensor plane can affect corner and edge resolution.

I can see more coma detail with a 40mm Nokton, at full resolution on a Z7, but the coma is present on a M240. Same thing can be observed with field curvature on some lenses, it's there regardless of the film/sensor.

Usually with these types of questions one only gets the echo chamber response.

 

[JeffS7444]

Since the mirrorless revolution picked up speed, Voigtlander began to offer a number of their M mount lenses in Sony E. The first was the Nokton Classic 35mm f1.4 which was originally designed for film rangefinders. In later years, Voigtlander now has a wide range of M lenses in Sony E mount. But since M lenses are optimized for Leica M bodies, and they don't perform as well on mirrorless bodies, particularly Sony E, are the mirrorless versions fully optimized for each intended lens mount? Or are the newer designs more forgiving with mirrorless bodies and are therefore ported with little to no change apart from lens mount and flange distance?

Before purchasing my 50/2 Apo-Lanthar, I was trying to decide between the native E-mount lens and the M lens, and discovered that no, they are not optically the same: Both optical diagram and MTF were a bit different.

 

[sojournerphoto]

I haven't seen any facts from Cosina stating that the optical formulas are different between mounts, where a particular lens is first offered in M mount. I've seen speculation about the placement of elements or groups changing, but I haven't seen any facts supporting this.

In terms of element/group placement From my own usage, I know that changing the registration distance of a lens from the sensor plane can affect corner and edge resolution.

I can see more coma detail with a 40mm Nokton, at full resolution on a Z7, but the coma is present on a M240. Same thing can be observed with field curvature on some lenses, it's there regardless of the film/sensor.

Usually with these types of questions one only gets the echo chamber response.

The echo chamber is exactly what you’re likely to get with ChatGPT I’m afraid.

Changing registration distance only changes the mount and isn’t responsible for changes in rendering. For a given lens design, that’s likely to be impacted by different sensor stack designs - particularly thickness and refractive index of cover glass. That will affect both field curvature and other optical effects.

 

[Godfrey]

As always, the only way to know for sure what a particular lens does on a specific camera is to try them both, yourself, and see what works nicely for you.

That said, one would have to imagine that whomever is designing a lens for a specific mount will test it on a camera with that mount first, and later, when a new mount is designed, will then test it on that mount to see if it performs acceptably. But there's a lot of leeway in evaluating what is 'optimized' for a specific mount and what is 'acceptable' or 'satisfactory' on another mount.

G

 

[mrtoml]

If you go to the Voigtlander site some of the lenses for Sony E state that the lenses have been optimised for Sony FF cameras and some don't.

E.g., "The NOKTON 50 mm F1.2 Aspherical E-mount is a high-speed manual focus lens optimized for the full frame imaging sensors of Sony mirrorless cameras."

Or "The NOKTON 28 mm F1.5 aspherical was developed exclusively for Sony E-mount cameras and adapted to full-frame image sensors."

But most of them don't state anything specific. So I guess they have tested them on various full frame cameras and maybe made adjustments to the ones that needed it or that are new designs.

It's certainly difficult to tell for sure.