Developing black and white film without using stop bath?

[MNS]

The 1920s and before. Before Kodak perfected the production of high bloom gelatin. It was definitely a problem then with some films and plates.

Ah thank you, that answered that question. Funny how they were still telling us this in the late 1980s! 😂

 

[Freakscene]

Ah thank you, that answered that question. Funny how they were still telling us this in the late 1980s! 😂

Most darkroom lore was just myth. Like that daft notion that fixer sinks. As if you had a glass of cordial/flavored syrup/squash when you were a kid and had to keep stirring it to stop the concentrate from sinking.

 

[Muggins]

In the darkroom at the community college where I teach, I have seen indicator stop bath that is totally exhausted--it turns purple that looks almost opaque under sodium vapor safelights. It also feels slippery at that point, which means that it isn't doing its job of neutralizing the alkaline characteristics of developers.

Yes, it's a pH indicator with the colour change showing that it's now alkaline - hence the soapy feeling, alkalis often feel soapy (funnily enough, soap is alkaline). That's why DownUnder's vinegar would do the job - it's acid. Though I suspect "real" stop bath is better buffered to maintain pH than dilute vinegar is.

 

[wlewisiii]

I just use a cold water rinse. Works fine for me.

 

[steveyork]

Some fixers don't require a stop bath -- eg, TF4 and TF5. Two step process. And of course you can just use water as a stop bath.

 

[markjwyatt]

I've continued using Stop Bath. In the 70s it was Kodak acetic acid based with indicator. Now I have gone to citirc acid based because I already deal with the sell of Ilford Rapid Fix (ammonium thiosulfate) and do not need the additional smell of acetic acid. I do not consider it critical, but just use it because I always have.

I just tried some Bergger ONE oneshot dev/fixer on a couple of rolls that I questioned were good or not (one HP5plus and one FP4plus, both turned out ok). There is no way to use Stop Bath in this case, plus I liked the fact that it did not use ammonium thiosulfate. I should look into low smell fixers too, but Rapid Fix formulations work, wash out well, and are easy to use.

 

[brusby]

Household vinegar is a weak acid - acetic acid if I remember correctly. If you dilute it with plain water, it'll be a very weak acid, and extremely unlikely to cause any harm to your emulsion or anything else for that matter, particularly when used for only a minute or two and at approximately room temperatures. But it will neutralize the active ingredients in the more basic developer quicker and more effectively than plain water. Remember your basic chemistry, acid plus base produces a salt. This renders the basic ingredients of the developer inactive. I'm almost certain things like Kodak stop bath were a variation of this. It would be what I'd use if I ran out of the commercial stuff.

In a pinch, you could also use a few drops of citric acid from lemons and/or limes, which is also a weak acid, but straining out all the organic matter would be such a pain and you'd probably end up with tiny bits of crud all over the negatives.

 

[MaxElmar]

Probably just an old habit that won't die - but I've always used some sort of stop bath. Lately just 1+4 of 5% distilled household vinegar - call it a 1% acetic acid bath. I get consistent results. Consistently mediocre, but consistent.😆

 

[Valkir1987]

Amaloco recommended a citric acid stop bath when using short developing times to get a more 'even' density. At least that was their conclusion after doing lots of tests. My neutral fixer lasts longer as well. Another thing I do after the first rinse after the fixer is a soda bath, it helps to break down the fixer and reduces the amount of water needed for the final rinse.

 

[Freakscene]

Standard stop bath is acetic acid buffered with acetate and with an indicator added. No other active ingredients. Citric acid ones can be buffered with citrate. I like citric acid stop baths because they don’t smell.

 

[DownUnder]

Amaloco recommended a citric acid stop bath when using short developing times to get a more 'even' density. At least that was their conclusion after doing lots of tests. My neutral fixer lasts longer as well. Another thing I do after the first rinse after the fixer is a soda bath, it helps to break down the fixer and reduces the amount of water needed for the final rinse.

Soda? Does that mean Bromo Seltzer ? Or sodium carbonate?

I recall a photo book from the 1950s recommending a soak in a mix of water and sod-carb for prints before washing them. I also used it for films, which I thought removed fixer from emulsions when using the then-popular Ilford film washing method. Do any darkroom workers still do this, or is my memory of it from the dinosaur era?

Ilford once (and maybe still does) manufactured a product called RidFix. I used it in the 1980s and 1990s but now I've idea if it is still available Kodak also had a hypo remover in powder form, again I made use of a lot of it in my home darkroom in Canada in the '60s. These could now both be ancient chemistry no longer made.

Citric acid in stop bath I've never used. Mostly because it's so expensive in AUS. In most of Asia it's as cheap as - not chips, but fried rice. I've thought of buying it in bulk and returning home with it in my bags, but the possible hassles with AUS customs would be too much for me. So I will make do with my now-ancient Kodak Indicator Stop Bath until the end for both of or either of us.

 

[DownUnder]

Probably just an old habit that won't die - but I've always used some sort of stop bath. Lately just 1+4 of 5% distilled household vinegar - call it a 1% acetic acid bath. I get consistent results. Consistently mediocre, but consistent.😆

Good one. Possibly are you me under another ID? 😊

I now remember the vinegar-water mix was published in an old (I think 1910s) Kodak photo instruction book. These are still fun and interesting to read and now and then they offer something actually usable with modern films.

Ditto a 1920s British photo book in which I once found a recipe for a superb print developer that produce maximum absolutely-jet blacks on even the cheapest RC papers I used. I recall it lasted forever and I kept a bottle of stock mix going for over two years until I finally used it up, this in the 1980s when of course everything was different and things manufactured or mixed or produced by whatever means, actually lasted.

This book is well hidden in one of my storage boxes at home, but if I ever find it I herewith promise to post the formula for anyone interested to play with.

 

[Freakscene]

Good one. Possibly are you me under another ID? 😊

I now remember the vinegar-water mix was published in an old (I think 1910s) Kodak photo instruction book. These are still fun and interesting to read and now and then they offer something actually usable with modern films.

Ditto a 1920s British photo book in which I once found a recipe for a superb print developer that produce maximum absolutely-jet blacks on even the cheapest RC papers I used. I recall it lasted forever and I kept a bottle of stock mix going for over two years until I finally used it up, this in the 1980s when of course everything was different and things manufactured or mixed or produced by whatever means, actually lasted.

This book is well hidden in one of my storage boxes at home, but if I ever find it I herewith promise to post the formula for anyone interested to play with.

Indeed, cough it up please @DownUnder

I can compare it to my other list of “ultrablack” developers. There is one very highly concentrated Defender formula that is odd; the paper sits there a while then ‘explodes’ to almost completely developed in less than a second. Expensive, and wasted on RC paper but amazing with cold tone fibre base papers.

 

[DownUnder]

indeed, cough it up please @DownUnder

I can compare it to my other list of “ultrablack” developers. There is one very highly concentrated Defender formula that is odd; the paper sits there a while then ‘explodes’ to almost completely developed in less than a second. Expensive, and wasted on RC paper but amazing with cold tone fibre base papers.

Bookmarked. This is one promise I intend to follow-thru beyond the half baked level.

I think Defender is the name of that old old formula I had. Or maybe I used D (which maybe was American) at another time in my early darkroom era - now sadly ended, I now process films now and then when I've accumulated a goodly enough number so maybe once a year, my eyesight is now too poor for precise printing work in the dark - tho the book I mentioned in British, so it's probably a similar mix.

Some RC papers worked better than others with odd developers, also tinting and toning. I could never do anything with Multigrade III but there was some hope with the IV. Also a European paper, not Agfa as their RCs were as hopeless as Milford's, maybe from one of the Eastern Europe outlets. It came in a red pack and now and then got discounted at Vanbar's in their Carlton time, this in a bygone era when they actually gave discounts, now long passed.

Again a sepia-tinted memory but in my darkroom days the best papers I found for warm-cold tone shifting or toning were the Kodak ones. I cut my teeth on Kodabromide but quickly went to the old early Polycontrast. Kodabrome RC was still available (again from Vanber's) in the early '90s but IRRC the last stocks they had of that brand went in 1991 or 1992. I remember that well as I bought most of it, again at a discounted price. Oh, the memories...

 

[Freakscene]

Bookmarked. This is one promise I intend to follow-thru beyond the half baked level.

I think Defender is the name of that old old formula I had. Or maybe I used D (which maybe was American) at another time in my early darkroom era - now sadly ended, I now process films now and then when I've accumulated a goodly enough number so maybe once a year, my eyesight is now too poor for precise printing work in the dark - tho the book I mentioned in British, so it's probably a similar mix.

Some RC papers worked better than others with odd developers, also tinting and toning. I could never do anything with Multigrade III but there was some hope with the IV. Also a European paper, not Agfa as their RCs were as hopeless as Milford's, maybe from one of the Eastern Europe outlets. It came in a red pack and now and then got discounted at Vanbar's in their Carlton time, this in a bygone era when they actually gave discounts, now long passed.

Again a sepia-tinted memory but in my darkroom days the best papers I found for warm-cold tone shifting or toning were the Kodak ones. I cut my teeth on Kodabromide but quickly went to the old early Polycontrast. Kodabrome RC was still available (again from Vanber's) in the early '90s but IRRC the last stocks they had of that brand went in 1991 or 1992. I remember that well as I bought most of it, again at a discounted price. Oh, the memories...

All the phenidone developers tend towards cold tone, but if it’s old it won’t be one of them.

I loved Kodak papers. I still have a stockpile of Azo frozen for retirement. Elite was my favourite - graded, cold tone, and with very high highlight contrast. The worst thing about the loss of breadth in paper availability and the dominance of VC papers is that different sorts of highlight contrast are gone - all the manufacturers have settled on a low-to-medium middle value that ‘mostly’ suits ‘most’ negatives. I imagine that I will be printing darker and bleaching fairly often when I come back to it.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I only used it, because i used it for paper as well.
Just film, even several rolls per week, no need.
Fixer will go bad anyway. After some time . And if you want it quickly, use rapid fixer and don't scrooge on it.

 

[Freakscene]

Duplicate. So here is a photo anyway.