Rayt
Nonplayer Character
Last one. 35mm Summilux Pre-A v2 @1.4 and M10M. I could have done this with TMax 100 on a tripod.
Leica M EV1 First Review - It's Bad
- Thread starter dkreindler
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shawn
Veteran
Any chance you have either of those RAW files to share? I agree that the look is a little much but it seems to me to be overprocessed. You are getting a little haloing around two of the cacti in this shot and around the cactus and the rock in your first shot. That might also be resulting in a bit of exaggerated whites in the branches too.This is a better example when the light wasn’t so diffused like the one above.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I would write that a little differently, although the gist is the same:
"When imaging onto high-pixel-density sensors, lenses exhibit issues such as chromatic aberration, flare, coma, and others. Some older lenses exhibit imaging with both more kinds of aberrations and greater magnitude to the aberrations, but the age of a lens is not a perfect predictor of such issues. Individual variations, lens by lens, exist in all cases."
Not every lens of a given model will show the same issues, and that there are NO perfect lenses that exhibit no issues at all. With older lenses, where degradation from use, age, and variances from the assembly process of years past will matter more, you'll probably see more issues. But even new lenses exhibit variations.
Most users never see such things clearly because they only ever have one of a given lens at a time. I was in the position many years ago of evaluating lenses to use for ground truth on a project at NASA. We were working with Nikon ... We needed a half dozen 105mm f/2.5 lenses for a particular project. Nikon sent us two dozen, and I was part of the team that tested them on the optical bench and graded them. Of the 24 examples we received, I was able to grade them into four batches from best to poorest ... in the best performing batch, there were nine lenses, so I allocated six lenses for the project, and paid for one of them for myself. The others (none of which were "bad", just not as good as the "best") we sent back to Nikon and they were returned to Nikon's inventory for sale.
I have not found much wrong with my Leica lenses, although they are clearly not the latest, greatest, highest spec lens models available. In the end, regardless of specifications and individual performance, what matters is whether a particular lens suffices for its intended purpose, not whether it is wholly without flaws or is the best or worst example. Many wonderful photographs have been made with lenses which rival a Coke bottle bottom in optical quality... 😉
G
Duofold RF
Well-known
JeffS7444
Well-known
You make some good points, but if M9 delivers all that you want from a camera, I'm not sure what value you'd get out of an additional 9K USD expenditure for a newer M-camera?
Yes, more precise technique is essential for fully exploiting the potential of higher-resolution image sensors, but that was just as true in the days of shooting film. I recently checked out Fujifilm's GFX100RF, a 100 megapixel point 'n shoot camera. I experienced some difficulty in getting the autofocus to lock in low light, and even when manually focused, my handheld test photos were all slightly soft. But then I remembered my Fuji GSW690 (6x9 film) , which could produce dazzling results, but only if I held the camera extra-steady. Do I need 100+ megapixels? No (at least I don't think so!) but I see it as a creative challenge to improve my technique and see where it leads me.
pgk
Well-known
My M9s are not bad and no I wouldn't pay 9k for any camera. Fortunately there are many people with deep pockets and a desire for the latest and greates, so many lightly used cameras come onto the used market well below new prices. That said, how long I retain my Leicas is starting to become an interesting question. Much as I enjoy using them and their lenses the new prices are bluntly silly and even if I had that much loose change (which I don't) it would annoy me to have to spend such sums when I can buy equipment just as capable for a fraction of the price. To me the M-EV1 is a 'amateur' camera (not being derogatory as I am sure it is capable of good imagery in the right hands) as opposed to being 'professional' because it has little place as such a camera, and is a classic example of chasing a market as opposed to producing a photographic tool.
Precise technique is tricky when the camera in question is marketed as a hand held one. Most medium format film cameras were often shot using tripods, a device which is apparently an anathema to many Leica owners. I often use my M9s on a tripod along with 'R' Sonys and the D800E now too. All are highly capable cameras but can need care in use.
KM-25
Well-known
I think even if just some digital / pixel derived approximation, something along the lines of an RF patch would most likely have gone a fair distance in pleasing the average but still dedicated M user. It's absence is indeed puzzling, seems a minimum requirement to me anyway.
The reason for my thinking is that one uses an M not to be on the cutting edge of all things photo gadgetry but to enjoy that highly unique but simple way of arriving at an image. So the RF patch is more of a personal and emotional thing for me, it just feels good, feels right and therefore is.
It's too bad that Leica did not figure out how to implement a digital version of it in the EVF. Maybe the next version will?
The reason for my thinking is that one uses an M not to be on the cutting edge of all things photo gadgetry but to enjoy that highly unique but simple way of arriving at an image. So the RF patch is more of a personal and emotional thing for me, it just feels good, feels right and therefore is.
It's too bad that Leica did not figure out how to implement a digital version of it in the EVF. Maybe the next version will?
This to me is the major shortcoming of this model. On the other hand they actually have incentive to NOT do a digital RF patch. 🤣
ellisson
Well-known
Leica does what many businesses do: they diversify to stay in business. They make cameras, watches, spotting scopes, binoculars and other luxury items. Their camera division had to go beyond rangefinder cameras because not enough people buy or use them; only a very small minority.
The M-EV1 was in response to many calling for it. It clearly does not appeal to rangefinder camera users who favor that way of doing photography. It is not an M12. It is a separate line. That is the concept that seems so difficult for so many to understand. Like it, love it hate it, despise it, but don’t confuse it with an M rangefinder camera!
Whatever form and features the next M RF camera take (M12?), it won’t have an in-body EV. More megapixels won’t be that attractive. Upgrades to the screen resolutions are meh. So, while they figure out what they can do for the M12 following what’s in the M11, the M-EV1 was a good move by Leica. Price…expensive, just like the M11 and its predecessors.
The M-EV1 was in response to many calling for it. It clearly does not appeal to rangefinder camera users who favor that way of doing photography. It is not an M12. It is a separate line. That is the concept that seems so difficult for so many to understand. Like it, love it hate it, despise it, but don’t confuse it with an M rangefinder camera!
Whatever form and features the next M RF camera take (M12?), it won’t have an in-body EV. More megapixels won’t be that attractive. Upgrades to the screen resolutions are meh. So, while they figure out what they can do for the M12 following what’s in the M11, the M-EV1 was a good move by Leica. Price…expensive, just like the M11 and its predecessors.
Frank Gosebruch
Newbie
It was a great pleasure for me to test the new Leica M EV1 on Saturday.
In my opinion, despite all the advantages mentioned, the camera has four truly significant flaws (and disadvantages!) that urgently need to be addressed in the EV2 model update:
1. The camera can no longer be used effectively at ground level or for macro (or microscopy).
Unlike, for example, the M11 (together with the Visoflex 2), the M EV1's built-in EV viewfinder can no longer be flipped up.
It is completely rigidly mounted.
There is no longer a thread in the eyepiece for the angle finder 12531, and the monitor can't be flipped up as a replacement either.
The hot shoe also no longer has any contacts for the Visoflex 2, which could at least be used as a "backup angle finder" if necessary.
2. The familiar (enlarged) rangefinder field of view in the Leica M viewfinder has been abandoned.
In the rangefinder of EVERY previous Leica M camera, at least a small area outside (around the bright-line frame) was visible.
This made it possible to detect potentially disruptive influences outside the image early on and avoid them in the actual shot.
By using a slightly larger sensor (and shutter), it would be easily possible to retain this extremely advantageous feature of the previous optical rangefinder for the Leica's internal EVF.
3. The power consumption is far too high.
Compared to my Leica M11 P, I can't even take half the number of shots with the new Leica M EV1 as before. This is a no-go and no longer acceptable.
4. The internal Wi-Fi router of the M EV1 is just as bad and slow as the one in the M11 P.
It's simply outdated that I need almost a minute for every 60MP DNG I want to transfer from the camera to my iPhone, and then have to manually request this for each individual image.
The FOTOS app urgently needs to be revised, as it doesn't allow simultaneous use of my two Leicas at all, and the menu structure is too confusing and completely outdated.
Please don't argue that this would entail higher costs. It doesn't matter how much the future "Leica M EV2" would cost, because it would be significantly more successful on the market than this M EV1 ever will be.
Besides, this camera would at least rightfully bear the "M" in its name – which is definitely not the case with the M EV1!
In my opinion, despite all the advantages mentioned, the camera has four truly significant flaws (and disadvantages!) that urgently need to be addressed in the EV2 model update:
1. The camera can no longer be used effectively at ground level or for macro (or microscopy).
Unlike, for example, the M11 (together with the Visoflex 2), the M EV1's built-in EV viewfinder can no longer be flipped up.
It is completely rigidly mounted.
There is no longer a thread in the eyepiece for the angle finder 12531, and the monitor can't be flipped up as a replacement either.
The hot shoe also no longer has any contacts for the Visoflex 2, which could at least be used as a "backup angle finder" if necessary.
2. The familiar (enlarged) rangefinder field of view in the Leica M viewfinder has been abandoned.
In the rangefinder of EVERY previous Leica M camera, at least a small area outside (around the bright-line frame) was visible.
This made it possible to detect potentially disruptive influences outside the image early on and avoid them in the actual shot.
By using a slightly larger sensor (and shutter), it would be easily possible to retain this extremely advantageous feature of the previous optical rangefinder for the Leica's internal EVF.
3. The power consumption is far too high.
Compared to my Leica M11 P, I can't even take half the number of shots with the new Leica M EV1 as before. This is a no-go and no longer acceptable.
4. The internal Wi-Fi router of the M EV1 is just as bad and slow as the one in the M11 P.
It's simply outdated that I need almost a minute for every 60MP DNG I want to transfer from the camera to my iPhone, and then have to manually request this for each individual image.
The FOTOS app urgently needs to be revised, as it doesn't allow simultaneous use of my two Leicas at all, and the menu structure is too confusing and completely outdated.
Please don't argue that this would entail higher costs. It doesn't matter how much the future "Leica M EV2" would cost, because it would be significantly more successful on the market than this M EV1 ever will be.
Besides, this camera would at least rightfully bear the "M" in its name – which is definitely not the case with the M EV1!
Out to Lunch
Veteran
It makes me think of an electric Porsche.
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
There is much truth to what you say and your evaluation of Wetzlar's business strategies. But there is another factor: HB. I was thinking I could squander a wad on an M11 and commensurate Leica lens. Then I looked around and found that Hasselblad offered the X2D at about the same price and a lens at about the same price. In the X2D I get IBIS, autofocus, 16 bit color, and HNCS giving killer 100MB images. Even my old buddy, JPG, is killer coming out of an X2D. There is more.
So when there is that much more quality available for the same price it is an easy decision unless you are wed to Wetzlar. And I think this disparity at the approximate same price point has Wetzlar worried. The color is better than Leicas. The X2D images are sharp but not so as to make your eyes bleed. It is a balanced and complete package.
My jaundiced opinion is that Leica is scrambling. The M EV-1 just seems a Frankenstein of parts from other cameras that falls short of a gestalt. The camera seems less than the sum of its parts. As always, YMMV.
pvdhaar
Peter
Indeed, it's like they threw a Q3 and an M11 in a bag, shaked it around for a bit and looked what fell out. It's like it misses the best of both worlds.. but my guess is that they'll still sell quite a number of them.
That the X2D can be considered objectively better may only matter if you buy a complete new system from scratch, while the draw of the M EV-1 is of course the compatibility with all the lenses people already have.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
So you are suggesting that it is more sensible for me to add a Hasselblad X2D body to my kit (already have 907x/CFVII 50C, three XCD lenses, V system adapter, 500CM, SWC/M, five V-system lenses, etc) than it is to add an M EV1 body to my kit (already have M10-R, M10-M, M4-2, M6 TTL, IIIc, and twenty or so M-/R-mount lenses plus etc) ...?
I believe Leica has produced the Leica M EV1 body mostly because a lot of their customers have been asking for it. They've approached this mirrorless body with a minimum of features to start with. I see nothing wrong with that, I just don't think it should be called an "M" since it lacks the rangefinder which was the basis of the name of that series line up.
I think I would have called it a Leica EV1, and otherwise left it exactly how they did it, or based it on the Leica CL digital, just expanding that to a FF sensor and selling it with the M Adapter L for backwards compatibility with existing M lenses. That is exactly how I used my CL the majority of the time; and if it had had the FF sensor, I'd still be using it today rather than selling it and buying the M10-R. But I'm not Leica's marketing development office... 😉
G
Dogman
Veteran
I suspect the "M" in the M EV1 will be silent in pronunciation. User will simply call it "EV1". That's as it should be, IMO.
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Duofold RF
Well-known
According to Kaufmann, 2023 Leica ended up selling nearly 5,000 film rangefinders (Leica M6 and MP models) compared to the 500 they sold in 2015 and sold around 11,000 digital M-mount bodies; film cameras accounted for 30% of their rangefinder camera sales.
Leica is such a small market
Leica is such a small market
ellisson
Well-known
Canon and Nikon have dwarfed them for ages. Only a small percentage of pros and amateurs shoot RF cameras. That is why Leica must sell other things to remain a viable business and to continue to produce RF cameras for that small market.
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JeffS7444
Well-known
boojum
Ignoble Miscreant
Thypoch
JohnGellings
Well-known
Haha, ok then...
