Cleaning a Zeiss Super Ikonta 530/2, how do I avoid the need to recollimate?

[mink109]

Hi, this is my first post here.
I have just bought my first ever film camera, a Super Ikonta 530/2 with a Triotar lens. I did some digging online, but couldn't find a ton of information on dissasembing its lens for cleaning fungus and haze, what the seller of my camera said it has.
From what the seller says, the camera currently focuses correctly, and seems to work with no issue.
I must note that I have experience with fixing old sewing machines, and have the tools needed for dissasembly already bought, like a lens spanner, and hydrogen peroxide, etc...
Now to my very beginner level question:
Will have to take apart the focus ring and/or shutter in order to get all the elements out, and if so, would I have to recollimate the lens?
Is there a way to mark the front element/focus ring or whatever, before taking it off, so that I can reassemble it without issue?

 

[KoNickon]

Hi, this is my first post here.
I have just bought my first ever film camera, a Super Ikonta 530/2 with a Triotar lens. I did some digging online, but couldn't find a ton of information on dissasembing its lens for cleaning fungus and haze, what the seller of my camera said it has.
From what the seller says, the camera currently focuses correctly, and seems to work with no issue.
I must note that I have experience with fixing old sewing machines, and have the tools needed for dissasembly already bought, like a lens spanner, and hydrogen peroxide, etc...
Now to my very beginner level question:
Will have to take apart the focus ring and/or shutter in order to get all the elements out, and if so, would I have to recollimate the lens?
Is there a way to mark the front element/focus ring or whatever, before taking it off, so that I can reassemble it without issue?

Others will no doubt speak more knowledgeably on this. But first, I take it you haven't gotten the camera yet, so you have not actually checked out the lens. If that's correct, when you do, look through the lens to see just how bad it is -- it may be that the lens will take perfectly fine pictures with no cleaning whatsoever. You'd need to shoot a roll to evaluate that, of course. And you may need a lens shade to minimize the effects of haze or fungus. (And you may decide, reasonably, that you should clean it since it will be even better if clean. But my point simply is that this job maybe can wait.)

Shine a light through the lens to see if you can tell which lens element(s) have the haze and/or fungus. That will tell you how deep you need to go into the lens to clean it. You may well have to remove the front lens element by unscrewing from the lens. Sometimes, especially with older lenses like this one has, there are age-related problems with the lens coating that cleaning simply won't help.

You should also check infinity focus -- is the lens sharp when focused at infinity? Set the shutter to B and the aperture to its widest setting. Use a remote release to keep the shutter open. Then you'll need a ground glass to place at the film gate to check the sharpness of the image. You probably don't have a ground glass. Others may have suggestions (wax paper perhaps), but I have found that cellophane tape (like Scotch tape) with a matte surface -- which is what seems to me the standard finish these days -- can work really well since it has a fine grain. You'll need to stretch several strips tightly across the film gate, preferably in the center. It's a little trickier to do than it sounds but works well. Then use a loupe or magnifier to judge sharpness of a distant subject. If you can look at lettering, like on a sign, that's a helpful gauge.

If the lens is clearly out at infinity, then you'll need to adjust it. This is a front-cell focus lens, I assume (only the front element turns when focusing), as opposed to the whole lens block moving. If so, you will need to remove the front ring that has the distance markings on it. You will need a very small screwdriver to loosen the set screws on the ring -- there should be three -- to enable the ring to lift off. Go around and loosen each screw a turn or so at a time. You want to make sure the screw doesn't come completely off -- they're small and can be easily lost, and are a royal PITA to reattach. Keep testing the ring as you loosen the screws to see if it's ready to come off.

Once you remove it, the front element infinity focus can be adjusted. (Again, I'm assuming this is front-cell focusing.) Looking through the ground glass, turn the front element and watch carefully for where the lens is in sharpest focus at infinity. At that point, use a scribe or something sharp to mark a reference point on the lens thread at top dead center. If that's all you need to do -- that is, the lens doesn't need to be taken apart further for cleaning -- then reattach the front ring with the infinity mark lining up exactly with the focus index mark, and tighten those set screws. You are done.

Whether you adjust infinity focus or not, if you need to remove the front element to clean interior lens surfaces, carefully unscrew the front element after removing the front ring. Go slowly -- keep checking for when it comes free from the lens tube. You will need to mark that point on the lens thread also, at top dead center. (Maybe scribe two lines to not confuse it with the infinity mark.) If you don't mark this, then you can be in for a really tedious time. The front lens elements are quite frequently (always?) threaded with several threads, so you will not get proper focus unless you reattach the lens element using the right starting point. So make sure to do this.

I am on less steady ground about the interior lens surfaces, i.e. the middle and rear elements. I don't know whether the Triotar has the aperture in front of the middle element, or behind it. Most likely it's before the aperture, so you will need to look closely at how the middle element is held in place. I would expect there is some sort of lock ring, which will require a spanner wrench to remove. Go carefully -- you are getting down into the lens and you won't have much room to play with -- a slip could scratch the lens element. If you are successful in getting it out, make certain you know which lens surface faces front, and which faces the rear of the lens. You'll never get the lens focusing properly if you flip the middle element.

OK, if you need to clean the front of the rear lens element, you should be able to do so with the front two elements removed. Just be sure the aperture is wide open so you can get at that surface.

If the only surface needing cleaning is the front of the rear element, then look for a lock ring at the back of the lens that holds the rear element in place. Make sure it's the right one -- should be right adjacent to the lens surface. You need a spanner wrench for this. Be careful you don't loosen the lock ring that holds the whole lens assembly in place! (Disclaimer -- I'm going on general experience here; I don't know what your 530/2 looks like inside.) You will want to have the camera folded to remove the rear element -- much easier to do.

I very much hope this is helpful. And I also hope, as I said above, that if I've stated anything incorrectly, others will correct or clarify.

 

[mink109]

Others will no doubt speak more knowledgeably on this. But first, I take it you haven't gotten the camera yet, so you have not actually checked out the lens. If that's correct, when you do, look through the lens to see just how bad it is -- it may be that the lens will take perfectly fine pictures with no cleaning whatsoever. You'd need to shoot a roll to evaluate that, of course. And you may need a lens shade to minimize the effects of haze or fungus. (And you may decide, reasonably, that you should clean it since it will be even better if clean. But my point simply is that this job maybe can wait.)

Shine a light through the lens to see if you can tell which lens element(s) have the haze and/or fungus. That will tell you how deep you need to go into the lens to clean it. You may well have to remove the front lens element by unscrewing from the lens. Sometimes, especially with older lenses like this one has, there are age-related problems with the lens coating that cleaning simply won't help.

You should also check infinity focus -- is the lens sharp when focused at infinity? Set the shutter to B and the aperture to its widest setting. Use a remote release to keep the shutter open. Then you'll need a ground glass to place at the film gate to check the sharpness of the image. You probably don't have a ground glass. Others may have suggestions (wax paper perhaps), but I have found that cellophane tape (like Scotch tape) with a matte surface -- which is what seems to me the standard finish these days -- can work really well since it has a fine grain. You'll need to stretch several strips tightly across the film gate, preferably in the center. It's a little trickier to do than it sounds but works well. Then use a loupe or magnifier to judge sharpness of a distant subject. If you can look at lettering, like on a sign, that's a helpful gauge.

If the lens is clearly out at infinity, then you'll need to adjust it. This is a front-cell focus lens, I assume (only the front element turns when focusing), as opposed to the whole lens block moving. If so, you will need to remove the front ring that has the distance markings on it. You will need a very small screwdriver to loosen the set screws on the ring -- there should be three -- to enable the ring to lift off. Go around and loosen each screw a turn or so at a time. You want to make sure the screw doesn't come completely off -- they're small and can be easily lost, and are a royal PITA to reattach. Keep testing the ring as you loosen the screws to see if it's ready to come off.

Once you remove it, the front element infinity focus can be adjusted. (Again, I'm assuming this is front-cell focusing.) Looking through the ground glass, turn the front element and watch carefully for where the lens is in sharpest focus at infinity. At that point, use a scribe or something sharp to mark a reference point on the lens thread at top dead center. If that's all you need to do -- that is, the lens doesn't need to be taken apart further for cleaning -- then reattach the front ring with the infinity mark lining up exactly with the focus index mark, and tighten those set screws. You are done.

Whether you adjust infinity focus or not, if you need to remove the front element to clean interior lens surfaces, carefully unscrew the front element after removing the front ring. Go slowly -- keep checking for when it comes free from the lens tube. You will need to mark that point on the lens thread also, at top dead center. (Maybe scribe two lines to not confuse it with the infinity mark.) If you don't mark this, then you can be in for a really tedious time. The front lens elements are quite frequently (always?) threaded with several threads, so you will not get proper focus unless you reattach the lens element using the right starting point. So make sure to do this.

I am on less steady ground about the interior lens surfaces, i.e. the middle and rear elements. I don't know whether the Triotar has the aperture in front of the middle element, or behind it. Most likely it's before the aperture, so you will need to look closely at how the middle element is held in place. I would expect there is some sort of lock ring, which will require a spanner wrench to remove. Go carefully -- you are getting down into the lens and you won't have much room to play with -- a slip could scratch the lens element. If you are successful in getting it out, make certain you know which lens surface faces front, and which faces the rear of the lens. You'll never get the lens focusing properly if you flip the middle element.

OK, if you need to clean the front of the rear lens element, you should be able to do so with the front two elements removed. Just be sure the aperture is wide open so you can get at that surface.

If the only surface needing cleaning is the front of the rear element, then look for a lock ring at the back of the lens that holds the rear element in place. Make sure it's the right one -- should be right adjacent to the lens surface. You need a spanner wrench for this. Be careful you don't loosen the lock ring that holds the whole lens assembly in place! (Disclaimer -- I'm going on general experience here; I don't know what your 530/2 looks like inside.) You will want to have the camera folded to remove the rear element -- much easier to do.

I very much hope this is helpful. And I also hope, as I said above, that if I've stated anything incorrectly, others will correct or clarify.

This is so helpful and clear! I will wait for more replies, but thank you so much!

And you are correct, the camera hasn't arrived yet.

 

[Muggins]

I'll second Nick's remarks above, I can't see anything I'd disagree with. I've partly dismantled a later (I'm guessing here) rangefinder Super Ikonta with a Tessar but, frustratingly, my only recollection is that I could have got a decent fry-up from between the front two elements it was so mushroomy.

If you are going to make a habit of this it's well worth getting some thin, stiff plastic sheet, cutting to fit the film gate, and rendering one side translucent with fine glasspaper - it should only take a few minutes. Just remember that the side you have sanded goes in the film plane, as you are projecting your image onto that, not looking through it to the lens.

If you are not planning on making a habit of it, the Scotch tape works well, just make sure it's stretched tightly as you need a flat surface. It's thin enough that the thickness of the tape won't make a meaningful difference.

Also, get some matt black emamel paint. You are bound to scratch the metal somewhere, even if it's just the slots on the lock rings, and it will prevent reflections pnto the film.

 

[p.giannakis]

I have taken apart a Triotar on a Rolleicord and cleaned it and did not require a recollimation as it is a unit focusing lens. The third element stays on the shutter assembly. It only needed to be screwed back together. Basically, I just used my hands, no tools needed.



I don't have any experience with the Super Ikonta 530/2. If it is a front focusing lens, you will definitely need to recolimate it. A video can be found here:



If it is a whole unit, you might get away with just screwing the whole thing back again.

 

[shawn]

I haven't done that camera but I think you have the additional gotcha of the RF prism needing to be in sync too.

If you take the front element off record it coming apart with your phone. Focus on the infinity stop peg on the shutter so you see which distance marking it is at when the helicoid comes apart. That will make it much easier to reassemble.

If you have to recalibrate the focus scale, before you change it make some kind of a mark on the lens body and the scale so you can go back to how it was. If it is only slightly off changing the scale is probably fine. If it turns out the lens is more off than that fixing 'infinity' focus by rotating just the scale might be problematic as you are essentially changing the focal length of the lens. That could throw off the scale distance markings and maybe the RF too. I've reused scale focus unit focus lens/shutters before and I made the mistake of correcting infinity focus on one of them by adjust the scale instead of using shims. That threw off all the rest of the distance scales on the camera.

Ideally the focus is already fine and as long as you put everything back together the way it was (including shims that are likely between the back of the shutter and the mount plate) you should not have to recalibrate focus. Your RF calibration may have to be redone though if the prism moves which you have it all apart.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

Hi, this is my first post here.
I have just bought my first ever film camera, a Super Ikonta 530/2 with a Triotar lens. I did some digging online, but couldn't find a ton of information on dissasembing its lens for cleaning fungus and haze, what the seller of my camera said it has.
From what the seller says, the camera currently focuses correctly, and seems to work with no issue.
I must note that I have experience with fixing old sewing machines, and have the tools needed for dissasembly already bought, like a lens spanner, and hydrogen peroxide, etc...
Now to my very beginner level question:
Will have to take apart the focus ring and/or shutter in order to get all the elements out, and if so, would I have to recollimate the lens?
Is there a way to mark the front element/focus ring or whatever, before taking it off, so that I can reassemble it without issue?

A few sharp, well exposed images of the front and sides of the shutter and lens wouldn't go astray. They'd help us to help you. The rear of the lens from inside the back of the camera probably wouldn't hurt, either.

I haven't done this particular model yet (I usually stick with folding Voigtländers, you get fewer light leaks than most other folders). Did do a Mess Ikonta for a friend last year. Its focus was woefully off and I initially assumed someone had removed the front cell of its lens and that they had mated the helical threads at the wrong thread pairing. (It was a Tessar, but a Triotar on an Ikonta is also front focusing.) Well, no. No thread pairing would see infinity calibrated optimally. I had to set the nearest thread pairing, then recalibrate the infinity stop screws. This involved carefully drilling new dimples for the three set screws of the outer ring into the metal of the lens mount. Fairly exacting work. Some shimming was also needed to get the parallelism of that particular camera's lens to its film rails good enough to produce decently sharp images.

My point in mentioning the above is: IF you are lucky, you may be able to "...avoid the need to recollimate?". But—you are assuming that your camera is, in fact, already correctly assembled. This is now a very old camera, that has probably been through an unknown number of hands before you bought it. If it's been fiddled with by previous owners without the basic knowledge needed to correctly reassemble it, it may, already, not be focusing anything like correctly in its current state. You might be surprised how frequently this scenario will occur.

You have some unknowns, then, which must be addressed. Firstly you must ascertain what the infinity focus of the lens is like. You'll need a ground glass and magnifying loupe to check the focus through the lens with the shutter open. Alternatively: a trustworthy single lens reflex with a long focus or medium telephoto lens; a piece of developed, unexposed film; and a suitably sized piece of glass with which to substitute the pressure plate behind the film. Using these, you can optically inspect the acuity of the image formed by the Triotar on a film at the gate.

If the lens is correctly calibrated as is—the critical issue when removing the front focusing glass from its helical coupling is to note the precise position of the front glass and its threads when the male/female thread pairing release. In order to correctly reassemble, those same individual threads must be reconnected when inserting the front glass.

Obviously if the lens can be calibrated optimally the rangefinder will then need to be adjusted to match it. In your shoes, I'd assume its adjustment could at the least be improved. But first, you need to get the lens right. If that is focusing badly a correctly set rangefinder is the least of your concerns.
Welcome to the forum.