Business is not Censorship
Business is not Censorship
Zeiss ZM and ZF was taken off my site because my grey market sources were cut off by Zeiss, and so I was not going to provide Zeiss was free world wide advertising 24/7. I didn't expect at the time removing the Zeiss ZM pages would be much noticed. Instead is created a lot of interest and generated a minor firestorm at RFF. In response I made made a statement on RFF explaining why the Zeiss pages were taken down -- actually I was surprised peopled cared. As explained on my site from literally day 1, my articles are about favorite cameras. No claim (or attempt) is made to be the #1 Leica M mount info site.
At that time I expected Tony Rose's gray Zeiss sales to go up 3x to 4x with me out of the Zeiss gray market. The opposite happened. Without my Zeiss ZM and ZF pages, Popflash Zeiss sales went down 30%. None of this has nothing to do with my ownership of RFF, other than Huck's imagining that he is in a good position to judge others. I don't think so.
Stephen
Business is not Censorship
Zeiss ZM and ZF was taken off my site because my grey market sources were cut off by Zeiss, and so I was not going to provide Zeiss was free world wide advertising 24/7. I didn't expect at the time removing the Zeiss ZM pages would be much noticed. Instead is created a lot of interest and generated a minor firestorm at RFF. In response I made made a statement on RFF explaining why the Zeiss pages were taken down -- actually I was surprised peopled cared. As explained on my site from literally day 1, my articles are about favorite cameras. No claim (or attempt) is made to be the #1 Leica M mount info site.
At that time I expected Tony Rose's gray Zeiss sales to go up 3x to 4x with me out of the Zeiss gray market. The opposite happened. Without my Zeiss ZM and ZF pages, Popflash Zeiss sales went down 30%. None of this has nothing to do with my ownership of RFF, other than Huck's imagining that he is in a good position to judge others. I don't think so.
Stephen
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Can I vote that we all stop speculating and just let the universe unfold? I'm not suggesting the thread be closed nor will I be disappointed if this thread continues with strong (and sorta OT) feelings, but it's about the photos ... and tangentially the gear that makes 'em fun to capture.
Xmas
Veteran
Guys
Stephen will be sympathetic about any one who has GAS. He will be like a responsible bar keeper with an AA member.
Now I do actually need a Nikon F CV lens, must start saving the pennies.
Noel
Stephen will be sympathetic about any one who has GAS. He will be like a responsible bar keeper with an AA member.
Now I do actually need a Nikon F CV lens, must start saving the pennies.
Noel
Xmas
Veteran
Perhaps Stephen wont mind as much if we cut and paste from his site, since we are now his site anyway?
Perhaps we can have an inverse discount if we have GAS, e.g. 110% of the normal price, perhaps it needs to be higher, to fund a more generous Christmas gift...
Noel
Perhaps we can have an inverse discount if we have GAS, e.g. 110% of the normal price, perhaps it needs to be higher, to fund a more generous Christmas gift...
Noel
petebown
Established
IMHO it seems like a logical move...
I seem to remember Stephen ran the forerunners to RFF... the CVUG and LUG mailing lists a few years ago. It was Stephen's website that persuaded me to sell all of my SLR and MF kit and go completely RF without ever using one before!
It would be a shame to lose the sponsor's links. The non US dealers are not really a direct threat to CameraQuest due to shipping costs and import duties etc. Leicatime and Gordy's Straps are not rivals at all. I can understand that Stephen may not want rivals on his site and the other dealers may themselves withdraw their support. I hope they don't.
I am located in the UK, so my first 'port of call' for equipment would be UK based dealers. However, as a consequence of RFF, I have placed orders with CameraQuest, Leicatime and Gordy's Straps. All of the items that I ordered from these three were not available in the UK.
I seem to remember Stephen ran the forerunners to RFF... the CVUG and LUG mailing lists a few years ago. It was Stephen's website that persuaded me to sell all of my SLR and MF kit and go completely RF without ever using one before!
It would be a shame to lose the sponsor's links. The non US dealers are not really a direct threat to CameraQuest due to shipping costs and import duties etc. Leicatime and Gordy's Straps are not rivals at all. I can understand that Stephen may not want rivals on his site and the other dealers may themselves withdraw their support. I hope they don't.
I am located in the UK, so my first 'port of call' for equipment would be UK based dealers. However, as a consequence of RFF, I have placed orders with CameraQuest, Leicatime and Gordy's Straps. All of the items that I ordered from these three were not available in the UK.
kevin m
Veteran
You're making this personal when it's not. All that's being pointed out is the rather evident conflict of interest.
And your vote counts more because....?
Well, all the talk in the world won't prove what time will. We have had a lot of opinions expressed, all as valid as the next. All we can do is to keep on keeping on to see where we end up.
kevin m
Veteran
Not really. It's not an "opinion" to point out a conflict of interest that would, frankly, be illegal in many business settings, it's a fact. The 'opinion' part of the equation comes in guessing as to how this will play out. I will remain hopeful on that count because there's really no other choice.
back alley
IMAGES
kevin m said:
how could this not be personal?
you stated that part of your concern comes from your experience at p.net, that's personal as it emanates from within you.
for me, i'm with the time will tell crowd. just because i'm a mod here doesn't mean that i am automatically on onside with the changes. i have apprehensions with change also and for those that have been around for awhile, you know that jorge and i didn't always see eye to eye on all issues and i was free to state my candid opinions.
we shall see...
joe
S
Socke
Guest
kevin m said:Not really. It's not an "opinion" to point out a conflict of interest that would, frankly, be illegal in many business settings, it's a fact. The 'opinion' part of the equation comes in guessing as to how this will play out. I will remain hopeful on that count because there's really no other choice.
If it's illegal, file a complaint.
I can't care less, here a company can run a webforum and have advertising from competitors if they want so and as far as I know Cameraquest, the company, has no problem with this.
kevin m
Veteran
Because I'm not calling Mr. Gandy's character into question, only the situation. My response would be the same no matter what retailer purchased the forum.
I am hopeful things will work out better here on the RFF than on photo.net because the community here is much more genial.
back alley
IMAGES
so it's not completely personal but it is partially personal, even without character questioning.
anyway, i'm mincing words but i did want you to see my point. there are few things that aren't personal.
anyway, i'm mincing words but i did want you to see my point. there are few things that aren't personal.
dostacos
Dan
many brands have forums they run AND wheelchairjunkies.com is a wheelchair forum open to all comers regardless of brand. the owner of the site is a wheelchair user and works for a specific brand. when specific questions regarding that brand Mark will answer OR pass the info on to someone else to SOLVE the problem.
What he does not do is remove or stop negative posts regarding his company's brand. he also does not have problems with people recomending other brands.
now all ya'all gotta understand a wheelchair is not a serious purchase, it is MUCH more important than that! Pay sources may not always cover all the costs, the comfort and function is paramount [I am looking at a new power chair that will cost close to the same as my Scion Xb and I will probably need a different car to move the thing to and from where I will be using it. [to/from work, etc]
our cameras mostly are hobby related, the chair is essential to our ADLs and Mark E. Smith has shown that a forum run by someone with a financial intrest can still be fair and impartial.
I would also like to point out that I have always aimed potential buyers looking for Bessa equipment to Cameraquest because my dealings have always been first rate and will contiune to do so
What he does not do is remove or stop negative posts regarding his company's brand. he also does not have problems with people recomending other brands.
now all ya'all gotta understand a wheelchair is not a serious purchase, it is MUCH more important than that! Pay sources may not always cover all the costs, the comfort and function is paramount [I am looking at a new power chair that will cost close to the same as my Scion Xb and I will probably need a different car to move the thing to and from where I will be using it. [to/from work, etc]
our cameras mostly are hobby related, the chair is essential to our ADLs and Mark E. Smith has shown that a forum run by someone with a financial intrest can still be fair and impartial.
I would also like to point out that I have always aimed potential buyers looking for Bessa equipment to Cameraquest because my dealings have always been first rate and will contiune to do so
BronicaLee
Established
To Jorge, thank you for your commitment to this endeavour and good luck to you in anything you may choose to do in the future.
To Stephen, thank you in advance for your expected commitment. You have some big shoes to fill, but I'm sure everyone will be happy to help you along the way.
I, for one, do not like change, so I shall persevere to be patient.
To Stephen, thank you in advance for your expected commitment. You have some big shoes to fill, but I'm sure everyone will be happy to help you along the way.
I, for one, do not like change, so I shall persevere to be patient.
mc_vancouver
Established
Jorge, you've done a great job. And will continue to do so, I'm sure. And Stephen, thank you for taking this on. It is a great forum. One of the things I like best about it is when you get into a discussion with someone and find out where they live and then you have, possibly, a contact in another city when you visit there. Not that we're all buddies...but still, we have a common connection in our love of rangefinder photography.
Topdog1
Well-known
Guys,
Let's just simmer down here. The beauty of a forum is that if you don't like it you can go somewhere else. And if there's no where else to go, you can start the somewhere else. There is almost zero barrier to entry in starting a Forum. I'm sure Stephen knows this and will endeavor his best to keep this one of the greatest places online for rangefinder and film photography (Ok, digital, too). Stephen's CameraQuest site has probably done more than any other to repopularize rangefinder cameras. This is not a zero sum game - an expanding market will help all of the retailers around the globe, and the camera manufacturers, too. I'm sure Stephen is aware of that. Why would he have bought the site if he were going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg?
Regards,
Ira
Let's just simmer down here. The beauty of a forum is that if you don't like it you can go somewhere else. And if there's no where else to go, you can start the somewhere else. There is almost zero barrier to entry in starting a Forum. I'm sure Stephen knows this and will endeavor his best to keep this one of the greatest places online for rangefinder and film photography (Ok, digital, too). Stephen's CameraQuest site has probably done more than any other to repopularize rangefinder cameras. This is not a zero sum game - an expanding market will help all of the retailers around the globe, and the camera manufacturers, too. I'm sure Stephen is aware of that. Why would he have bought the site if he were going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg?
Regards,
Ira
John Camp
Well-known
Newspapers for years had a built-in conflict of interest, and still do -- they have advertisers on one hand, and they're covering the community on the other, which often involves saying or implying things about advertiser's products (like car or movie or restaurant reviews.) Good papers never made any bones about this, but simply stated the logic behind their operation: there was a separation between the ad sales component and the newsroom, because if there weren't that separation, people would stop reading the newspaper and then there would be neither an ad forum nor a news forum. The separation was vital for the survival of the paper (some people have always tried to sell "shoppers", which pretend to be newspapers but aren't, and which have never been terribily successful because people recognize them for what they are -- shills.)
The point being that if Mr. Gandy heavy-handedly tries to turn this forum into a peaceful, non-controversial, highly censored arm of CQ, people will leave, and then he won't have a forum.
IN any case, I hope Jorge spends his new millions wisely and the forum rolls along.
But, Yo, Steve -- where's my Nikon-to-M-mount adapter?
JC
The point being that if Mr. Gandy heavy-handedly tries to turn this forum into a peaceful, non-controversial, highly censored arm of CQ, people will leave, and then he won't have a forum.
IN any case, I hope Jorge spends his new millions wisely and the forum rolls along.
But, Yo, Steve -- where's my Nikon-to-M-mount adapter?
JC
Palaeoboy
Joel Matherson
I do share some concerns that certain discussions will be stifled because of this, not directly because of new rules but how we perceive the change. For example although never strictly banned on the CVUG forum any discussion of alternate dealers were often discouraged by other members, "why dont you get it from Stephen its his forum" when people often from outside the USA dont want to buy from a dealer in the USA. Photonet is notorious for this whenever anyone asks where they can get their cameras fixed. No one ever asks what country they are from and its always the same few repairers in the USA that are always quoted. I remember once on CVUG it was made clear that it was an American forum and only English was to be spoken. Although a single common language is helpful some have to battle on with the best English they can but it was the premise that the forum was American and everyone else is an outsider, or thats how I personally felt at the time. This forum you wouldnt even know where it based and really feels like a true international forum. With the advice given here you arent instantly transferred to the USA for all your photographic needs. I hope this keeps up.
Rarely on CVUG are cristisms of certain Voigtlander products perpetuated for very long, again not because its banned but because due to the ownership of the forum people naturally feel reluctant to open up. (Sorry but the black paint on some Voigtlander lenses are quite poor! LOL). I find the conversations are strictly kept on topic there, where as here a bit of generalized discussion gives a far more friendly and diverse impression. I also remember cringing when Stephen could have possibly more tactfully stated it wasnt a democracy and there would be no discussion entered into with his rules, this leaves no room for flexibility or perhaps improvements because you dont dare question anything. Thats the benefits of independence which I think some are fearful may disappear from this forum. Stating those concerns upfront is not a criticism of anyone as I feel its better to be aware of them and perhaps keep an interactive discussion going to help ensure those fears expressed dont eventuate.
The fact that i have sat here debating if i should even post this for fear of offending someone, like Huck has, shows that there is some influence already. I will therefore have to sit in the "lets wait and see" camp and hope that this is a positive move for the forum. Either way, stay or go, Jorge should be patted on the back for his accomplishment and certainly the new addition of fixed lens rangefinders is a positive step forward (and a damn good idea).
Rarely on CVUG are cristisms of certain Voigtlander products perpetuated for very long, again not because its banned but because due to the ownership of the forum people naturally feel reluctant to open up. (Sorry but the black paint on some Voigtlander lenses are quite poor! LOL). I find the conversations are strictly kept on topic there, where as here a bit of generalized discussion gives a far more friendly and diverse impression. I also remember cringing when Stephen could have possibly more tactfully stated it wasnt a democracy and there would be no discussion entered into with his rules, this leaves no room for flexibility or perhaps improvements because you dont dare question anything. Thats the benefits of independence which I think some are fearful may disappear from this forum. Stating those concerns upfront is not a criticism of anyone as I feel its better to be aware of them and perhaps keep an interactive discussion going to help ensure those fears expressed dont eventuate.
The fact that i have sat here debating if i should even post this for fear of offending someone, like Huck has, shows that there is some influence already. I will therefore have to sit in the "lets wait and see" camp and hope that this is a positive move for the forum. Either way, stay or go, Jorge should be patted on the back for his accomplishment and certainly the new addition of fixed lens rangefinders is a positive step forward (and a damn good idea).
S
Socke
Guest
From many battles on photo.net I got the impression that most regulars don't know that there are other countriesPalaeoboy said:
Wait until the next elections in the USA and post something a republican might not want to see, the Malecon in Havana makes good bait.
But I shouldn't complain so much about photo.net, I deleted my account early last year and got a honorable banning last autumn
Here it is very different, first we are not that fixed on one brand, even if we have much more Leica content then what we had three years ago, its still only a part of the forums, as is Voigtländer and the FSU cameras.
And see the language thread, lots of people here who have some knowledge of other languages than their native ones and, what's more important, try to pick up some words and phrases either for fun or to use abroad or just to be friendly to others.
Some time ago someone complained about dpreview.com being unamerican and was very surprised that .com means comercial and not USA based and that dpreview is a british enterprise.
Topdog1
Well-known
The beauty of the forum concept is that if you don't like the forum, you can always go somewhere else or start a new one. I'm sure Steven is sensitive to that fact as well. Your participation in a forum is only as good as your last post. If it changes for the worse, not that I think it has, we can always take our chatter to a new home.
/Ira
P.S. Oops, looks like I'm repeating myself.
/Ira
P.S. Oops, looks like I'm repeating myself.