Leica Geek
Well-known
I'm looking to get a rapid winder for my Leica M6 classic black. A leicavit or a rapid winder from rapidwinder.com.
Which would you suggest?
Thank you.
Which would you suggest?
Thank you.
shenkerian
Established
Between the two, I'd suggest the Leicavit for its size, and the Rapidwinder for its price. But I'd try one out for a while to decide whether you want either. A Leicavit adds nontrivial bulk and weight, and a Rapidwinder is larger still. If you haven't held either, you might be surprised at the difference they make.
MinorTones
Well-known
How do these things work exactly? I have seen some photos of the rapid winder. Do you have to cock the little lever into the base and pull it back out for each wind? Or is it a shorter throw?
-Mitch
-Mitch
shenkerian
Established
You pull the handle by curling the fingers of your left hand, which cocks the shutter and advances the film. It's spring-loaded, so it returns after a smooth pull. The Leicavit is really a nice device, but I don't find its benefits worth the additional bulk and weight. If I were left-eyed, I might feel differently.
Leica Geek
Well-known
Yeah, I'm a left eyed shooter.
Leica Geek
Well-known
So a Leicavit is smaller and lighter?
S
StuartR
Guest
I am not sure it is lighter, but it is smaller...and I believe it is smoother too. I bought a leicavit at the same time I bought my first Leica, and I must admit that I never use it. It would be one thing if you could take it on and off mid roll so you only had it when you needed it, but you can't, so you either put up with the extra weight on the off-chance you need it, or you go without it. I tend to go without it. And yes, I am a left-eyed shooter too. It just did not really make a big difference for me. But I am a pick and choose sort of shooter. I usually take only one or two shots of any given scene, so it is not a big benefit to me. If I really liked to take a lot of shots, I might use it more, but the M motor is even better than the Leicavit, albeit louder and heavier.
And before anyone asks, no, I am not selling it. I plan on keeping it in its box until I am 90 and then I will use it to buy my coffin.
And before anyone asks, no, I am not selling it. I plan on keeping it in its box until I am 90 and then I will use it to buy my coffin.
Leica Geek
Well-known
I was looking for a Leicavit online and they cost more than my M6. The motors seems to going for much less.
No Comparison !
No Comparison !
seriously there is no comparison. it's like comparing a Yugo to a Mercedes. The RapidWinder is that much better. Today's Leicavit has more parts in the lock than Tom's RapidWinder has in the entire design! The RapidWinder is incredibly simpler, more reliable, smoother, and has a much better warranty -- a lifetime warranty which Tom even gives to used RapidWinders!
Not that all people like or should use RapidWinders -- bottom triggger advance is not for everyone. Yet to many serious M people, using a RapidWinder shows you are probably an M system expert. After all, it is a niche market and the RapidWinders are comparatively rare, relative to the number of M cameras. Conversely, using today's Leicavit is like broadcasting you are an inexperienced M newbie.
Stephen
No Comparison !
Leica Geek said:
seriously there is no comparison. it's like comparing a Yugo to a Mercedes. The RapidWinder is that much better. Today's Leicavit has more parts in the lock than Tom's RapidWinder has in the entire design! The RapidWinder is incredibly simpler, more reliable, smoother, and has a much better warranty -- a lifetime warranty which Tom even gives to used RapidWinders!
Not that all people like or should use RapidWinders -- bottom triggger advance is not for everyone. Yet to many serious M people, using a RapidWinder shows you are probably an M system expert. After all, it is a niche market and the RapidWinders are comparatively rare, relative to the number of M cameras. Conversely, using today's Leicavit is like broadcasting you are an inexperienced M newbie.
Stephen
Leica Geek
Well-known
Can you order one for me?
Leica Geek said:
I don't sell them. Just order directly from Tom at RapidWinder.com.
it will fit your M6, but not your M5.
Stephen
Leica Geek
Well-known
Thanks Stephen.
RapidWinder.com Updated Site
RapidWinder.com Updated Site
BTW, Tom just updated his site a few days ago.
the new part on RapidWinder history was especially interesting to me.
Stephen
RapidWinder.com Updated Site
BTW, Tom just updated his site a few days ago.
the new part on RapidWinder history was especially interesting to me.
Stephen
Will
Well-known
CameraQuest said:
Does the trigger flow abit? Tried a used one in HK, found that the trigger rather loose, is it a problem or are all TA's Rapidwinders are like that?
erikhaugsby
killer of threads
I'm not sure I understand this statement--are you implying that paying for a Leicavit as opposed to a Rapidwinder causes one to lose one's credibility in shooting Leicas? The Rapidwinder might be smoother, I'd much prefer to purchase the smaller Leicavit even if it does cost more based on size alone.CameraQuest said:
That said, as I only have an M2 the odds of finding a classic Leicavit in the price range of a Rapidwinder (or hell even a new Leicavit) are astronomically against me. This doesn't mean the M2 Rapidwinder is that easy to find, either.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
Leica Geek, I'm trying to reply to your PM but your mailbox is full...
Harry Lime
Practitioner
http://leica-users.org/v24/msg07126.html
The Leicavit M is a derivative of my Rapidwinder. There are no parts interchangeable between the old Leicavit/Leicavit MP as it drives through the intermediate gears of the M4-2/M4-P and M6/M7, while the original MP connected with the take-up shaft of the M1/M2 and MP cameras. Leica has gone to a great deal of effort to make the new Leicavit smaller than my Rapidwinder. They wanted to fit the drive train inside a shell which has the same dimensions as the old Leicavit MP. They also wanted to use the drive-coupling from the Winder-M (they probably have a lot of those around) and as this coupling is taller than my own drive, they had to resort to a complex system of drive/intermediate gear/clutch-drive to shave the 3mm of the height. The original Leicavit MP had a rather clunky chain-drive, prone to stretching and breaking and the clutch was a simple single action cam-style. This required the user to ensure that the camera was cocked before you put the Leicavit MP on, otherwise it would require the user to stroke it twice, before the film advanced properly.
Advances in clutch design now allow the designer to access small, strong, multipin drives that engage at any position as well as allowing advancing the film with several short strokes ( advantageous when you are shooting verticals). The chain is now replaced by a reinforced “timing� style belt which is quieter than the chain and far less prone to breakage or stretching. The lock of the new Leicavit M is similar to the base-plate lock on the regular base, much improved over the Leicavit MP and the older style M4-2/M4-P and M battery winder. These had a sliding lock that stuck out on the short side of the housing and forever snagged clothing and bag interiors.
The lever and lever-lock on the Leicavit M is not that good. The lock is copied from the Voigtlander Triggerwinder and it suffers from the same problem as that lock. If you carry the camera around your neck and the lever touches your clothing, it releases and the lever swings free. You put the camera up to your eye and fires, the left hand is pulling at the lever and no action, the lever simply folds into the track! The lever is also very narrow and I found that after 4-5 rolls in quick succession my left hand hurt from the “thin-ness� of the lever. I did experiment with different lever-shapes when I designed the Rapidwinder and I decided on a more “meaty� lever, just to avoid this problem. The lock on my design is also more positive in its action, once locked down it stays down until you want it to fold up.
Smoothness of action is just about the same as my winder. Leica uses a softer spring action for the return of the lever and if you operate the winder/camera without film, it feels very smooth and soft. My winder uses a stronger spring to ensure a quick return to “zero� and the effort is slightly more noticeable. Once you load up with film the effort is more or less the same with either winder. There is also a certain difference between cameras that affect smoothness of operation, The intermediate gear-train on the M is not all that smooth in most M4-2’s, M4P’ and M6’s and that can translate to a slight roughness in winder-use although it tends to “wear� in and smoothen out with time Interestingly enough, I did notice a slight variation in film-spacing with the Leicavit M on my Millennium M6. not alarming in any way, but there are short sequences of negatives where the space between got progressively more narrow (6-7 frames) and then it would revert back to normal spacing.
Of course, Leica has now found a brand new position to put the tripod bushing, slightly off-set and three quarters of the way down the base. There is no room to put it in the “base-plate� position as the clutch/drive is positioned there (as on my M2 Rapidwinder) and the lever is slightly more centered in the Leicavit M and that precludes putting it on the optical axis. It does look like they looked long for a spot with enough “meat� to drill out and then put it there!
Do I like the Leicavit M? Apart from the lever/lever-lock, yes I do. It is a nicely made accessory and in black paint it will quickly “patina� itself to match a well-used camera. It is smooth and fits well (a slight “spring� in the mounting does indicate that the hook on the camera and the cut-out for the hook on the winder are slightly misaligned, but my Leicavit M is an early version, #00022, and that could explain it). I do not think it is worth more than mine and at double the price, I am not buying another one for myself. I also suspect that my Rapidwinder will outlast the Leica version in hard use. Leica claims that they tested the Leicavit M for 80 000 exposures (sounds a lot, but it is only 2000+ rolls, not that much for a pro-shooter!). I have had mine go through 2 to 3 times that, before I change clutches or service them.
The Rapidwinder and the Leicavit M are similar products, but with different design concepts. I worked hard to reduce the complexity of my design and have it built as strong and durable as possible, as well as making it user serviceable, if something would break. I have a background as a photographer and I built the Rapidwinder for other photographers (and thus also being conscious of the cost-factor. Photography is more often than not a less than well-paid profession). The Leicavit M is designed for the casual Leica M user and it will meet those requirements very well and it will certainly look good on a black paint MP or M6TTL.
Well, considering that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, I am deeply flattered as I have already had a Hong Kong “knock-off� of my Rapidwinder (last year) and now Leica has copied me. I do hope that they will do well with the MP and the Leicavit M as they need to have something to sell and this might be a winner for them. In the meantime I will keep making my version as there has been no reduction in orders or enquiries since the announcement of the Leicavit M.
Windingly yours,
Tom A
Tom Abrahamsson
rapidwinder.com
PS: All the testing of the Leicavit M has been done on my Millennium M6 and I will now start trying it out on other bodies (M6, M4-P, M4-2’s and a variety of converted M3’s). Just to wet your appetite, the lens used for the last 25-30 rolls has been the 35/1,2 Voigtlander Nokton Aspherical.
- --
The Leicavit M is a derivative of my Rapidwinder. There are no parts interchangeable between the old Leicavit/Leicavit MP as it drives through the intermediate gears of the M4-2/M4-P and M6/M7, while the original MP connected with the take-up shaft of the M1/M2 and MP cameras. Leica has gone to a great deal of effort to make the new Leicavit smaller than my Rapidwinder. They wanted to fit the drive train inside a shell which has the same dimensions as the old Leicavit MP. They also wanted to use the drive-coupling from the Winder-M (they probably have a lot of those around) and as this coupling is taller than my own drive, they had to resort to a complex system of drive/intermediate gear/clutch-drive to shave the 3mm of the height. The original Leicavit MP had a rather clunky chain-drive, prone to stretching and breaking and the clutch was a simple single action cam-style. This required the user to ensure that the camera was cocked before you put the Leicavit MP on, otherwise it would require the user to stroke it twice, before the film advanced properly.
Advances in clutch design now allow the designer to access small, strong, multipin drives that engage at any position as well as allowing advancing the film with several short strokes ( advantageous when you are shooting verticals). The chain is now replaced by a reinforced “timing� style belt which is quieter than the chain and far less prone to breakage or stretching. The lock of the new Leicavit M is similar to the base-plate lock on the regular base, much improved over the Leicavit MP and the older style M4-2/M4-P and M battery winder. These had a sliding lock that stuck out on the short side of the housing and forever snagged clothing and bag interiors.
The lever and lever-lock on the Leicavit M is not that good. The lock is copied from the Voigtlander Triggerwinder and it suffers from the same problem as that lock. If you carry the camera around your neck and the lever touches your clothing, it releases and the lever swings free. You put the camera up to your eye and fires, the left hand is pulling at the lever and no action, the lever simply folds into the track! The lever is also very narrow and I found that after 4-5 rolls in quick succession my left hand hurt from the “thin-ness� of the lever. I did experiment with different lever-shapes when I designed the Rapidwinder and I decided on a more “meaty� lever, just to avoid this problem. The lock on my design is also more positive in its action, once locked down it stays down until you want it to fold up.
Smoothness of action is just about the same as my winder. Leica uses a softer spring action for the return of the lever and if you operate the winder/camera without film, it feels very smooth and soft. My winder uses a stronger spring to ensure a quick return to “zero� and the effort is slightly more noticeable. Once you load up with film the effort is more or less the same with either winder. There is also a certain difference between cameras that affect smoothness of operation, The intermediate gear-train on the M is not all that smooth in most M4-2’s, M4P’ and M6’s and that can translate to a slight roughness in winder-use although it tends to “wear� in and smoothen out with time Interestingly enough, I did notice a slight variation in film-spacing with the Leicavit M on my Millennium M6. not alarming in any way, but there are short sequences of negatives where the space between got progressively more narrow (6-7 frames) and then it would revert back to normal spacing.
Of course, Leica has now found a brand new position to put the tripod bushing, slightly off-set and three quarters of the way down the base. There is no room to put it in the “base-plate� position as the clutch/drive is positioned there (as on my M2 Rapidwinder) and the lever is slightly more centered in the Leicavit M and that precludes putting it on the optical axis. It does look like they looked long for a spot with enough “meat� to drill out and then put it there!
Do I like the Leicavit M? Apart from the lever/lever-lock, yes I do. It is a nicely made accessory and in black paint it will quickly “patina� itself to match a well-used camera. It is smooth and fits well (a slight “spring� in the mounting does indicate that the hook on the camera and the cut-out for the hook on the winder are slightly misaligned, but my Leicavit M is an early version, #00022, and that could explain it). I do not think it is worth more than mine and at double the price, I am not buying another one for myself. I also suspect that my Rapidwinder will outlast the Leica version in hard use. Leica claims that they tested the Leicavit M for 80 000 exposures (sounds a lot, but it is only 2000+ rolls, not that much for a pro-shooter!). I have had mine go through 2 to 3 times that, before I change clutches or service them.
The Rapidwinder and the Leicavit M are similar products, but with different design concepts. I worked hard to reduce the complexity of my design and have it built as strong and durable as possible, as well as making it user serviceable, if something would break. I have a background as a photographer and I built the Rapidwinder for other photographers (and thus also being conscious of the cost-factor. Photography is more often than not a less than well-paid profession). The Leicavit M is designed for the casual Leica M user and it will meet those requirements very well and it will certainly look good on a black paint MP or M6TTL.
Well, considering that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, I am deeply flattered as I have already had a Hong Kong “knock-off� of my Rapidwinder (last year) and now Leica has copied me. I do hope that they will do well with the MP and the Leicavit M as they need to have something to sell and this might be a winner for them. In the meantime I will keep making my version as there has been no reduction in orders or enquiries since the announcement of the Leicavit M.
Windingly yours,
Tom A
Tom Abrahamsson
rapidwinder.com
PS: All the testing of the Leicavit M has been done on my Millennium M6 and I will now start trying it out on other bodies (M6, M4-P, M4-2’s and a variety of converted M3’s). Just to wet your appetite, the lens used for the last 25-30 rolls has been the 35/1,2 Voigtlander Nokton Aspherical.
- --
S
StuartR
Guest
CameraQuest said:
Personally, they all seem like bit of an affectation to me. Even as a left-eyed shooter, they seem more like a collector's fetish to me than a useful tool. The Rapidwinder is just for the type of collector who fancies themselves a bargain hunter as well. I am sure it is very well made, but if you need fast film advance for an M mount camera, either the M motor or a Hexar RF are really much better choices. The only situation where I can see a Rapidwinder or a Leicavit being a better choice than a motor is if you have to photograph very very quietly with no batteries, yet still have to fire very fast.
x-ray
Veteran
Two of the 4 Leica bodies that i use regularly have leicavits attached. They're small, quiet, dependable and never need batteries. They're always ready to go. The additional size and weight are non factors to me. I may even add a third one at some point. I am left eyed but find it very convenient to focus with the left hand index finger and advance with the second and third finger on the wind lever. The left thumb helps secure the camera. When I started shooting journalistic work in the 60's I wanted a Leicavit for my M2's since the M2 mot bodies were very expensive and the motors were out of sight too plus they were very large and heavy. If I remember correctly the motor and battery pack were about 1.5 times the size of the camera body. I think they took 10 AA batteries too.
Leica Geek
Well-known
Hi Ken,
Sorry my mail was full.
Ed.
Sorry my mail was full.
Ed.