Using a Kiev Cassette as a takeup spool

[kmack]

I find that when I use the cassette in my Kiev II or III the film wind on is very smooth and I have not had any problems with frame spacing.

First a disclaimer: This is what works for me for the cassette and camera that I have. Your mileage may vary, I also am making up the nomenclature as I go along.

The cassette consists of three parts. The spool (mine is a spool from a roll of hp5), the outer sleeve and the inner sleeve/locking core.

To open the cassette turn the locking core counter clockwise until the pins are between the 9 and 10 o'clock position relative to the tab. The two sleeves should be free to slide apart.

At this point I will tape the film to the spool, (I may get around to modifying a spool some day) and load the spool back into the cassette.

 

[kmack]

Reassemble the cassette and turn the pins to the 4 o'clock position in relation to the tab.

When loading the cassette into the camera please note that the tab will fit in the slot and the pins should be sitting just above the flange. When everything is lined up as shown in the last photo the back cam locks will fit over the pins on the cassette so when you lock the back the cam will engage the pins and open the cassette.

 

[Ash]

That's how you're 'meant' to do it.

The Kiev is a Contax. The Contaxes were made for dual-cassettes (or dual concentrics), so you don't need to rewind. Faster overall use. The cassette also provides enough friction to give a better frame spacing experience, or something.

 

[ruben]

Reassemble the cassette and turn the pins to the 4 o'clock position in relation to the tab.

When loading the cassette into the camera please note that the tab will fit in the slot and the pins should be sitting just above the flange. When everything is lined up as shown in the last photo the back cam locks will fit over the pins on the cassette so when you lock the back the cam will engage the pins and open the cassette.

This is new for me. The fact that when the camera is closed the cassette is open. This is very important as some of us here in Jerusalem were afraid from friction between the film and the cassette mouth.

So now we can go for the most rusted/ugly/overpainted/badpainted (=cheap) cassettes on the market without fear

What about light spilling into the cassette if to be used for film storage, either before exposure or after ?

Now, I see from the white tape that you don't use the original cassette rod with its spring catching for the film, or the case is that you use the white tape over the original rod spring ?

Thank you kmack,
Ruben

 

[mike goldberg]

>>This is new for me. The fact that when the camera is closed the cassette is open. This is very important as some of us here in Jerusalem were afraid from friction between the film and the cassette mouth.

Thank you kmack AND Ruben !

I shall copy-paste the relevant posts in this Thread...
and run a test roll in my K4a.
Cheers, mike

 

[mike goldberg]

Terms & ALTERNATIVE

Terms & ALTERNATIVE

UPDATE to PM's sent to both kmack & Ruben,

So, I played with the Kiev metal cassette for an hour...
between 3- o'clock and 4- o'clock
Now, I can get it disassembled and reassembled quickly.
Great exercise in manual dexterity. I must however, tell it like it is...

Soon, I shall think about photos for the FSU Contest.
As for now, [until the Fed-2 arrives]... the K4a is it.
I am NOT comfortable with the Kiev cassette... even now
that I have seen its innards.

So, I did something amazingly simple: I took a re-loadable black cassette,
turned it over, taped in HP5+ to the inner spool, closed the cassette...
and it is on the right side of the K4a. And, I made sure that it's a cassette,
through which the film will slide easily, as it is advanced through the felt lips.

Yes. it is a 2-cassette arrangement... as in kmack's pix above, except the
cassette is a standard, re-loadable type. And, since I have not bulk loaded
in a lot of years, rest assured, when I open the Kiev, it shall be in the dark.

BTW: Does flange refer to the inner metal cylinder...
or the outer housing in the Kiev cassette?

Thanks and cheers,
mike

 

[kmack]

UPDATE to PM's sent to both kmack & Ruben,

So, I did something amazingly simple: I took a re-loadable black cassette,
turned it over, taped in HP5+ to the inner spool, closed the cassette...
and it is on the right side of the K4a. And, I made sure that it's a cassette,
through which the film will slide easily, as it is advanced through the felt lips.


Thanks and cheers,
mike

That will work too

What about light spilling into the cassette if to be used for film storage, either before exposure or after ?

Now, I see from the white tape that you don't use the original cassette rod with its spring catching for the film, or the case is that you use the white tape over the original rod spring ?

The cassette I have only had a standard plastic film spool, I can see where a spring loaded catch to hold the film would be an advantage.

I would assume that you would have to load the film in the dark with these cassettes and make sure you have enough leader so you do not have to open them to load the camera.

 

[ruben]

............So, I did something amazingly simple: I took a re-loadable black cassette, turned it over, taped in HP5+ to the inner spool, closed the cassette...
and it is on the right side of the K4a. And, I made sure that it's a cassette,
through which the film will slide easily, as it is advanced through the felt lips.

Yes. it is a 2-cassette arrangement... as in kmack's pix above, except the
cassette is a standard, re-loadable type. And, since I have not bulk loaded
in a lot of years, rest assured, when I open the Kiev, it shall be in the dark.

..............mike

I tryied it and it didn't work for me, the film borders begun to break against the sprockets. Upon kmack explanation I understand now why. The original Kiev cassette works "mouth open", while the modern ones for bulk film or from the lab trash, work with the mouth closed. A world apart .

Nevertheless Mike, I will be happy to find it can work.

Hi kmack,
Thank you for directing our attention to the issue of the leader for the cassette being the feeder cassette.

But I think I would start with the cassette as a taking one, and reload to the original feeding one at the left. If this goes ok, then I will think what's next.

Yet I repeat, your statement that once the camera is closed the cassette opens - I don't remember to have read it anywhere else and is a major revelation. Congratulations !

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[mike goldberg]

There is a story about a small, Far Eastern kingdom.
The king heard that in a tiny Province, far away across the waters...
there were 3 men whose worship was different than that of all of all
the other subjects of the kingdom. So, the king sent his Holy Man
to the distant province.

After a tiresome journey, the Holy man labored all night to teach those three,
the standard, acceptable Prayers. In the morning, the exhausted Holy Man
got in his rowboat to leave the Province, and return to his king.
The three men came skimming across the surface of the waters,
and beseeched the Holy Man, "Please Sir, teach us the prayers again... we have forgotten."
The Holy Man replied, "Never mind; just keep on doing what you are doing.
It is working."

And so, back to reality... Kiev reality. Tho' "Things go better with Coke," as the ads say...
things often do NOT go easily with Kiev. Consider the following, and
note this is experimental:

I'm looking for a way to avoid the awkward Rewinding of the K4a... with 70 or more turns of the knob... whilst holding in the stiff, spring loaded button at the bottom plate of the camera.

There seem to be 2-3 options:

- Get familiar with the Kiev metal cassette [as kmack did], and master it...
until its use becomes more user-friendly.

- Utilize a standard, reloadable bulk type cassette in the takeup or right side
of the Kiev.

- Use the standard take-up spool that came with the K4a.

What have I done before?...

I have used the K4a's standard, slotted take-up spool.
The winding is moderately OK... no where near as smooth & soft, as when
the K4a is empty.

I do recognize that utilizing the Kiev metal cassette is still an option.
I need more time to play with this, understand it and master it...
And, I want to acknowledge the "Breakthrough" that came out of the
interaction between Ruben and kmack, revealing the fact that the Kiev
cassette is designed to remain open, during film transport.

Can I trust the Kiev cassette to be closed, when I have shot a full roll of film,
without Rewinding, as I remove the camera back?

In any event, if I use EITHER the Kiev cassette OR a standard, reloadable one on the Takeup or right side, I'm going to stop exposing film at frame #33 or #34. This is because, approximately 3 inches of film will be exposed to light between the 2 cassettes, when the camera back is removed... unless, I
remove the film & cassettes in the dark.

Does the above... not sound like a big "pain in the tushie?"
Let's say, I'm out shooting with the Kiev, I've reached the end
of a roll and want to continue shooting!
Do I need to say any more?...
Do I carry scissors, tape and a mini-tool kit on every Kiev shoot?

The ONLY reason I would use any "two cassette method," is, maybe, just maybe... the winding will be smoother & softer.

There's another option not previously mentioned:
For soft & smooth winding with a standard take-up spool?...
How about the Fed-2

Cheers, mike

 

[ruben]

Hi Mike,

In fact it is easy issue. Buy some 5 Kiev cassettes, to have some flexibility. Use them only as take up cassettes (right side). And when you have finished the roll just cut the end.

Then, if you process at home no problem at all. If you shoot color, put the cassette in your pocket until you arrive home (Hence why to have several cassettes is a good idea) and extract the film in darkness and put it within a black plastic can.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[mike goldberg]

Hi Ruben,

I know that in your 1,001 experiments, you already have already tried what
I'm going to do this week with the K4a and a Reloadable cassette, having
felt lips on the Takeup side.
Since I haven't as yet done it I want to see if it will make
winding any smoother. One roll should tell me what I need to know.

Re: Wear & Tear:

If you go through a roll of film and wind it back from a simple, slotted takeup spool, the film is passing twice between the felt cassette lips.

With 2 cassettes, it is the same net result... out of the left cassette and into the right... twice.

Ideally, if the Kiev cassete is working as it should, it is one pass through the felt lips, out of the left cassette and into the Kiev cassette on the right.

This, however, is IF the Kiev cassette is working as it is supposed to... and, IF there are no light leaks, when I open the camera ;-)

My method [which you have already tried], may, or may not, contribute something to smooth winding and the advancement of the Kiev maintenance knowledge base.

I predict that:

- I shall very quickly return to the simple, slotted takeup spool...

- I shall use the Fed-2 much more often than the Kiev.

C'est tout.
Cheers, mike

 

[alternatve]

Hi Ruben,

I know that in your 1,001 experiments, you already have already tried what
I'm going to do this week with the K4a and a Reloadable cassette, having
felt lips on the Takeup side.
Since I haven't as yet done it I want to see if it will make
winding any smoother. One roll should tell me what I need to know.

Re: Wear & Tear:

If you go through a roll of film and wind it back from a simple, slotted takeup spool, the film is passing twice between the felt cassette lips.

With 2 cassettes, it is the same net result... out of the left cassette and into the right... twice.

Ideally, if the Kiev cassete is working as it should, it is one pass through the felt lips, out of the left cassette and into the Kiev cassette on the right.

This, however, is IF the Kiev cassette is working as it is supposed to... and, IF there are no light leaks, when I open the camera ;-)

My method [which you have already tried], may, or may not, contribute something to smooth winding and the advancement of the Kiev maintenance knowledge base.

I predict that:

- I shall very quickly return to the simple, slotted takeup spool...

- I shall use the Fed-2 much more often than the Kiev.

C'est tout.
Cheers, mike

I agree, it sounds very troublesome. And, your last few shots would be lost, unless the Kiev came with a film cutter inbuilt in the camera.

Oh well, all the best in your shooting. Hopefully it comes to something. If not, another step in the path of learning.

 

[ruben]

Hi Mike,

kindly notice at the firt Kmack pic here, that the Kiev cassette has a tab for preventing it to turn inside the camera.

Any other cassette lacks this tab. Now think about the right side, where the film is wond clockwise, or right to left, or the same as the winding knob. A standard cassette without tab will turn a bit inwards, towards the the left side. So you will have the felt stopper, the thin mouth stopper, and the inwards slight turn of the standard cassete as another stopper.

Yet you could figure out a way to prevent this turn of the standard cassette inwards, for better luck.

Cheeers,
Ruben

 

[Xmas]

A Contax cassette (also dual concentric) will work as well as a Kiev, the Kiev cassette will work in a Contax camera.
If you use a standard cassette (commercial loaded) in the feed side then the last two frames will be lost as the commercial cassettes wont release the end of the film.
A intact concentric should have a inner spool to allow the option of retention of the film or release of the film.
Lastly I dont see how the concentric in the take up chamber is going to improve the ease of winding unless there was something wrong with the origonal take up spool (e.g. tolerance).
When I use bulk film I only use a concentric in the feed chamber, a standard spool for take up, this means no felt trap scratches, but the bulk loader has to actuate the cassette close mechanism and they are not fool proof like a Kiev baseplate lock.
Noel

 

[40oz]

thanks for this posting. I bought a few cassettes a while back, and haven't been able to figure out how to use them. I'm going to give it another go now. That also expalins the three mysterious protrusions on the winding knob on the bulk loader.

FWIW, both my Kiev 4 and 4a have a roller guide for the film on the take-up side that prevent the use of a standard 35mm cassette for take-up. The roller hits the cassette "flange" where the film exits/enters when the back is placed on the camera. The concentric cassette fits fine.

 

[kmack]

A Contax cassette (also dual concentric) will work as well as a Kiev, the Kiev cassette will work in a Contax camera.
If you use a standard cassette (commercial loaded) in the feed side then the last two frames will be lost as the commercial cassettes wont release the end of the film.
A intact concentric should have a inner spool to allow the option of retention of the film or release of the film.
Lastly I dont see how the concentric in the take up chamber is going to improve the ease of winding unless there was something wrong with the origonal take up spool (e.g. tolerance).
When I use bulk film I only use a concentric in the feed chamber, a standard spool for take up, this means no felt trap scratches, but the bulk loader has to actuate the cassette close mechanism and they are not fool proof like a Kiev baseplate lock.
Noel

I use just the opposite, a concentric on the takeup side only.

A lot of us with older Kiev's never got the original take up reels. The plastic reels from the Kiev 4's cause a lot of drag when used with the Kiev II and III's I am convinced that most of the frame spacing problems are due to these plastic reels. Using the cassette seems to make the wind on much smoother and I have never had frame spacing problems when using the cassette as the takeup.

As for loosing the last two frames, I bulk load so the last two frames are normally lost any way.

 

[Xmas]

The Kiev origional spools (and the origional spools in the cassettes) have a location devicce on their bottom end which may halp winding on.

The 'Kiev' cassettes can be used in some other FSU cameras as well as Kievs, e.g. Zorki 2, Zorki 5, and probably Fed 2 etc. The Contax origionals can only be used in Kiev or Contax.

Noel

 

[kmack]

The Kiev origional spools (and the origional spools in the cassettes) have a location devicce on their bottom end which may halp winding on.

The 'Kiev' cassettes can be used in some other FSU cameras as well as Kievs, e.g. Zorki 2, Zorki 5, and probably Fed 2 etc. The Contax origionals can only be used in Kiev or Contax.

Noel

Thanks Noel, I have a Fed 2 with the metal spool, I never thought to try it in the Kiev. I'll give it a shot sometime soon.

 

[Xmas]

If the camera has a baseplate lock on the left hand side it may be ok, except for Fed 1 and Zorki 1...

Noel

 

[Xmas]

Oh before you drop a Kiev or Contax or leitz cassettes - they are easy to damage, and difficult to fix. Store then in commercial cassette cans.

Noel