snausages
Well-known
I'm looking to buy my first rangefinder camera.
The lenses I'd like to use are the CV 15mm, CV 35/1.2 and a 50mm (in my dreams, the noctilux).
I'm having a hard time deciding between the R3A, the R4A and a used Leica M6 or M7. (Thinking it'd be good to save money on the body since the lenses will add up quickly.)
Since I like to shoot wide, the R4A seems like a good choice.
(Though relying on batteries and an electronic shutter seem kind of wonky when working with a rangefinder. How much time do you find the AP mode realistically saving?)
I'm wondering if there're any fatal flaws (focusing more difficult on Bessas?)
that should keep me from trusting in the Voigtlanders.
People's results on the Voigtlander seem great, so I'm leaning that way, but looking to get some feedback before I dive in.
Thanks for any thoughts...
The lenses I'd like to use are the CV 15mm, CV 35/1.2 and a 50mm (in my dreams, the noctilux).
I'm having a hard time deciding between the R3A, the R4A and a used Leica M6 or M7. (Thinking it'd be good to save money on the body since the lenses will add up quickly.)
Since I like to shoot wide, the R4A seems like a good choice.
(Though relying on batteries and an electronic shutter seem kind of wonky when working with a rangefinder. How much time do you find the AP mode realistically saving?)
I'm wondering if there're any fatal flaws (focusing more difficult on Bessas?)
that should keep me from trusting in the Voigtlanders.
People's results on the Voigtlander seem great, so I'm leaning that way, but looking to get some feedback before I dive in.
Thanks for any thoughts...
MichaelHarris
Well-known
Tough call, the new CV bodies are very nice. I was faced with the same question recently. The M bodies are expensive and you could use the money on lenses since that's where the results are.
I opted for a Leica CL body in the end but I was real close to getting a Bessa body.
I opted for a Leica CL body in the end but I was real close to getting a Bessa body.
leica....!(to be 10char)
Huck Finn
Well-known
Batteries are a non-issue & electronic shutters have certain advantages. Batteries will apply to the M7 as well as the Bessas. have you actually compared any of the cameras & see how you like the feel, the respective viewfinders, etc.? I would begin there. If you can't find a shop near you, you may find a member near you who will let you try theirs.
ferider
Veteran
I like the Bessas that I had.
But spending thousands of Dollars on lenses and then putting them on
a < 500$ body is a little like buying a 911 Turbo and not having money for
the right tires.
The body is mostly about user comfort. Like Huck said, best would be
to try a few, including the ZI and Hexar RF, if possible for you.
Welcome !
Roland.
But spending thousands of Dollars on lenses and then putting them on
a < 500$ body is a little like buying a 911 Turbo and not having money for
the right tires.
The body is mostly about user comfort. Like Huck said, best would be
to try a few, including the ZI and Hexar RF, if possible for you.
Welcome !
Roland.
mfogiel
Veteran
I have just dipped my toe into the rangefinders. I've bought first the Bessa R4A, and having seen it close, I have immediately bought also the R3A.
My reasoning has been, that although I enjoy a lot B&W film shooting, the digital is getting close. In colour 35mm I shoot basically only digital, (Fuji S3), it is difficult to match. I think in B&W we are not there yet, because of the 12 bit image processing - if this goes to 14 or 16 bit, and maybe we get rid of bayer pattern, even a 6mp sensor will blow the film away.
The film - yes- but that has nothing to do with today's lenses, which should be useful for quite a stretch. So, my reasoning has been, get better lenses, and plain, lightweight bodies specific for the type of shooting you want to do, rather than getting stuck with an nth expensive film camera body(Leica M7) I chose the R4A for the 21 C Biogon and the 28 Elmarit, and the R3A for the C Sonnar 50, and maybe a Tele Elmarit 90, just in case I need something longer and don't have better cameras at hand for this.
I wear glasses, and on the R4A, I can easily see the 28 frames, a bit less so the 25, and just barely the 21 ones, BUT, with the 3rd version of a 28/2.8 Elmarit (certainly not a huge lens) I get 1/4 of my image area blocked, so beware of the lenses you will choose. If you don't wear glassses and want to stick to 28-90(or 85) range a Zeiss Ikon, or a Bessa R2A are probably better.
I am choosing the "A" versions, because I feel the whole point of rangefinders is as little hassle as possible: small, light, fast. For slow work I have other cameras with better image quality potential, I have tripods, lightmeters, etc... So, particularly if you like shooting an occasional colour transparency, an aperture priority AE camerais a winner.
I believe in the adage, that the best camera, is the one you have with you - I've tried carrying around various stuff, but if you measure quality/portability ratio, the Bessa is hard to beat (with the right lenses, of ccourse).
My reasoning has been, that although I enjoy a lot B&W film shooting, the digital is getting close. In colour 35mm I shoot basically only digital, (Fuji S3), it is difficult to match. I think in B&W we are not there yet, because of the 12 bit image processing - if this goes to 14 or 16 bit, and maybe we get rid of bayer pattern, even a 6mp sensor will blow the film away.
The film - yes- but that has nothing to do with today's lenses, which should be useful for quite a stretch. So, my reasoning has been, get better lenses, and plain, lightweight bodies specific for the type of shooting you want to do, rather than getting stuck with an nth expensive film camera body(Leica M7) I chose the R4A for the 21 C Biogon and the 28 Elmarit, and the R3A for the C Sonnar 50, and maybe a Tele Elmarit 90, just in case I need something longer and don't have better cameras at hand for this.
I wear glasses, and on the R4A, I can easily see the 28 frames, a bit less so the 25, and just barely the 21 ones, BUT, with the 3rd version of a 28/2.8 Elmarit (certainly not a huge lens) I get 1/4 of my image area blocked, so beware of the lenses you will choose. If you don't wear glassses and want to stick to 28-90(or 85) range a Zeiss Ikon, or a Bessa R2A are probably better.
I am choosing the "A" versions, because I feel the whole point of rangefinders is as little hassle as possible: small, light, fast. For slow work I have other cameras with better image quality potential, I have tripods, lightmeters, etc... So, particularly if you like shooting an occasional colour transparency, an aperture priority AE camerais a winner.
I believe in the adage, that the best camera, is the one you have with you - I've tried carrying around various stuff, but if you measure quality/portability ratio, the Bessa is hard to beat (with the right lenses, of ccourse).
aizan
Veteran
if you want to shoot those focal lengths, you're better off with an r2a/m.
mfogiel
Veteran
P,S.
For me, the 50mm frames in the R4A are too small for precise framing, and I imagine that a roughly 2cm rangefinder base (37mm+0.52) will not give you great results in focussing a 50mm Noctilux. I think on balance the Zeisss Ikon could be a good compromise, but you better ask directly the ZI forum members.
For me, the 50mm frames in the R4A are too small for precise framing, and I imagine that a roughly 2cm rangefinder base (37mm+0.52) will not give you great results in focussing a 50mm Noctilux. I think on balance the Zeisss Ikon could be a good compromise, but you better ask directly the ZI forum members.
FrankS
Registered User
If you can, pick up and handle both Leica and Bessa cameras. Activate the shutter at various speeds. If you can't feel a difference, then count yourself lucky and buy the Bessa. It's a very good camera. If you can feel a certain unexplainable something about handling the Leica, then you're sunk.
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laptoprob
back to basics
Feel and solidity... I have a Bessa T, a Leica IIf and a Leica M2. The latter two are favorites. Maybe I will sell the T in time, who knows.
And the CLE ofcourse!
And the CLE ofcourse!
dazedgonebye
Veteran
FrankS said:
I've done this. I certainly felt the difference. I still bought the Bessa.
I think that, in many ways, the decision to buy a Leica is irrational. (Slipping in to flame retardant suit.), and I think Frank’s post describes why it is irrational. Now that there are alternatives that provide a very high percentage of the same functionality as a Leica (100% for most people’s needs) it’s no longer the function that drives the decision. In most cases, it’s the feeling you get from the purchase and the object.
In short, it’s all about the love.
Some people love the feel of precision and no compromise quality. Some people love the mystique of the name. Some people (no one here, I’m sure) love the status. Most people, I suspect, love all of the above…at least a little.
Love is irrational. That’s not a bad thing, I feel the same irrationality towards my wife and children. Certainly my life would be more “functional” without them, but I choose to be irrational where they are concerned.
I have a great appreciation for all of those things people love about Leicas, but they don’t move me to irrationality, so I own a Bessa (and maybe a Zeiss some day).
FrankS
Registered User
Some people love the feel of precision and no compromise quality. Some people love the mystique of the name. Some people (no one here, I’m sure) love the status. Most people, I suspect, love all of the above…at least a little.
That's me.
Not at all the others, though anti-Leica folks like to assign those motivations to Leica owners.
That's me.
Not at all the others, though anti-Leica folks like to assign those motivations to Leica owners.
dazedgonebye
Veteran
FrankS said:
I'm not anti-leica, in spite of that post. I just don't feel the love.
On the other hand, I have met enough people of the "mystique and status" variety to see where the overgeneralized perceptions come from.
kshapero
South Florida Man
FrankS said:
I totally agree, which is why I am scared to death to touch or get near a Leica. But maybe someday...........:bang:
FrankS
Registered User
Like I said, some folks feel it, others don't. If you feel it, it's not irrational to buy a used Leica M instead of a new Bessa. If you don't feel it, you're lucky in a way.
FrankS
Registered User
I really can understand the anti-Leica view, because I have the same view towards expensive wines, Scotches, and cigars. To me, the added expense is just not worth it in the scheme of MY life. I'm just as satisfied by less expensive varieties of these things. Some folks are not though, and that's fine by me. I don't understand anti-Leica folks though that for some reason feel the need to criticise those that make the Leica choice. (But then some folks get all bent out of shape about someone else putting a bit of tape on their cameras, so go figure.)
peter_n
Veteran
Welcome to the forum snausages! Wow its a long time since I've seen an ad for snausages on the telly! 
I use Leica M7 and CV R4A. I have not tried it yet but I don't think I fancy using a fast 50 on the R4. But the R4 is excellent for WA and if you only use the 50 a bit you should seriously consider it. A Noctilux however? No way - I have enough problems with that lens on a 0.85mag M7!
I use Leica M7 and CV R4A. I have not tried it yet but I don't think I fancy using a fast 50 on the R4. But the R4 is excellent for WA and if you only use the 50 a bit you should seriously consider it. A Noctilux however? No way - I have enough problems with that lens on a 0.85mag M7!
dazedgonebye
Veteran
FrankS said:
It's all priorities Frank.
I'm the same about Scotch as I am about cameras. I won't drink the cheap stuff, but the super-premium stuff isn't for me either.
On the other hand, I'm thrilled when someone lays out more money than I'm willing to spend for just about anything. I figure they're just building/maintaing the market that will be better able to provide the "value" choice that I prefer.
FrankS
Registered User
dazedgonebye said:
This view is way less judgemental than your post #11, which is what I reacted to.
back alley
IMAGES
for rangefinders, i have owned...
leica m4-p
minolta cle (x2)
mamiya 6
canon 4sb
canon p (x3)
nikon s2
bessa r
leica m3
zeiss ikon
contax lla
bessa r4m
i think that's all of them, not counting maybe a dozen or so fixed lens models.
they all did the same thing but did it a bit differently and they all felt different from the others.
i learned to work with and enjoy each one and i doubt that anyone could pick out a photo made with any one of them.
i say buy what you think will make you happy and if it doesn't continue to put a smile on your face then sell it and buy something else.
and for info sake, right now that r4m is putting a huge smile on my ugly puss!!
joe
joe
leica m4-p
minolta cle (x2)
mamiya 6
canon 4sb
canon p (x3)
nikon s2
bessa r
leica m3
zeiss ikon
contax lla
bessa r4m
i think that's all of them, not counting maybe a dozen or so fixed lens models.
they all did the same thing but did it a bit differently and they all felt different from the others.
i learned to work with and enjoy each one and i doubt that anyone could pick out a photo made with any one of them.
i say buy what you think will make you happy and if it doesn't continue to put a smile on your face then sell it and buy something else.
and for info sake, right now that r4m is putting a huge smile on my ugly puss!!
joe
joe