120 RF vs. SLR

[Bob Michaels]

Kevin: I shoot my Mamiya 7 just the same way I shoot a 35mm RF, handheld and on the fly. It works just the same for me. But you see the real difference in the prints, even at 8x10 sized. I'm sold on the larger neg improvement in prints. Unnecessary if all you do is post low rez JPGs.

The only SLR I own is a Bronica SQA. When I need a SLR, nothing comes close for the price. Maybe a Hasselblad would be a small improvement in optics but the price jump rules that out.

I shoot about 50/50 MF and 35mm. But when I look at the prints I use for exhibit, there is an large factor in favor of the 6x6 or 6x7 negs. And these are not landscapes, all handheld shots of people.

 

[Abbazz]

Kevin,

If you need a compact and versatile MF camera with a great lens that you'd be able to carry everywhere and use to take shots without too much fiddling about, then you might want to consider the Fuji G645zi. It's very fun to use and mine has never failed to astonish me with its superb pictures. Everything is included in one small package: a small zoom from medium wide to portrait with reliable autofocus and full automatic or manual exposure, a clever device that writes all the picture parameters (date, time, F-stop, speed, ISO) on the margin of the negatives and a pop up flash for those shots in dark corners. So you never will be tempted to acquire that ultra-expensive ultra-wide lens lens still missing from your kit...

If you want the ultimate quality in MF, then go for the format with the most real restate, that is 6x9. A huge Fuji, a Baby Linhof or a more manageable 6x9 folder will produce the biggest negatives this side of LF but will require more care in order to deliver the goods than the G645zi. But you have to imagine the results you could get: a big A3 print (11.7 x 16.5") from a 6x9 negative is only a 5x enlarging!

Cheers!

Abbazz

 

[pagpow]

Couple of points that you might find helpful:

1) http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/645nii.shtml a comparison of performance and costs for 645 SLRs

2) Roger Hicks, RFF member, and Frances Schultz in their book, Medium and Large Format Photography, indicate that format size selection depends on enlargements desired, with 645 color being good up to 12x16in enlargements, and monochrome better not enlarged above 10X12, if you want to retain tonality and "creaminess" pp 14-15.

Good luck working through the various considerations.

 

[Soeren]

Steve, that's why I'm shopping the 645, so the size doesn't become such an issue. Pentax 6x7's are so big I think I'd just rather jump to shooting 4x5. 😀

I would imagine the RF's have an advantage in hand-hold ability, just as in 35mm, but is it possible to hand hold 645 SLR's and get good results?

Actually a P6X7 isn't bigger than a F100 with MB15 and a 85mm f/1,4, in fact the 85mm on the Nikon protrudes more than the 90mm on the Pentax. Weight is another matter. My F100 with the 85mm is around 1800 something gram where the Pentax puts around 2500 something g on the weight. My Sinar Norma (5X7") double that 🙂 A Nikon F3 with a 50mm f/1.8 is just under 1kg.
The mamiya 7 II is 1210g with the 80mm lens. A Bessa R2M outfit with three lenses can be around 1kg 🙂
Kind regards

Edit BTW with the 50mm f/1,4 my F100 weights around 1500 g

 

[maddoc]

I use and like the Hasselblad 500 C/M with 80/2.8 Planar lens, this camera is still usable in a "walk-around-style" but I got best results using a tripod.

 

[wayneb]

I have the Mamiya 645 af. It behaves like an SLR from the 80s, in the good way (autofocus works most of the time, AE is pretty great and accurate) and the bad way (noisy, not attractive looking camera, bulky).

The image quality, when the conditions are right is really beautiful. Perhaps not as stunning as the 6x7, but certainly almost always a noticeable improvement on 35mm (digital and fiilm).

Being an SLR I was concerned that the mirror flap would make hand holding at the slower speeds impossible. Turns out I was wrong - I often get away with nice results at 1/90th and 1/60th and even occasionally 1/45th. Example follows (with data imprint)

Larger size is here

 

[Turtle]

If you think you will handhold an awful lot, RFs come into their own. TLRs are wonderful, but i feel even less flexible than RFs due to fixed lenses, reverse viewing etc. 120 RFs can be very quick indeed and I have shot sequences that would be unthinkable were I to have used my old 'cord.

The Mamiya 7 has peerless image quality and if you are doing walk about photography nothing will touch a 120 RF for lightness, speed, quietness etc. If you are happy with 645 format and want to shoot only wides, the RF645 is a probably the most ergonomically perfect 120 camera I have ever used (100 and 135 a pig to get hold of and cost a lot)...so, so fast to use and better built than the Mamiya 7.

Personally, I would entertain a 'blad or Pentax 67 unless working off a tripod almost entirely. The Mamiya 7 and RF645 are far more intuitive hand held, no mirror issues etc. The Mamiya 6 is also worth looking into through I have never used one.

The bigger 6x7 neg does make a difference over 645 but it is not epic. I can certainly see a difference on 16x12 and gets more noticeable from then on.

If you are likely to shoot a lot of colour and need polarisers are grads, the SLR will be the better option. For monochrome only and shooting on foot and on a tripod when required, I would not dream of using anything other than a RF120. I have lovely shots from my cord, but the camera induces a much sleepier, relaxed style for me. That won't work for me when things speed up.

 

[aizan]

i'm really tempted by the pentax 645nii and mamiya 645af. both go for around 1k, which is almost too good to be true.

gotta stay strong, though. the fuji gf670 is only a month away. 🙂

 

[Doug]

Yes, it is odd that in general the MF SLRs offer faster lenses than RFs. More lens choice too. But heavier noisier bulkier. If f4 is fast enough for you then size and personal preference will guide you to RF or to SLR. I like both, and of course that's a choice too! 😀

I like eye-level hand-held operation, so that's kept me away from TLRs and most SLRs, and toward the Pentaxes. I don't find any problem carrying around a P67, though obviously a Bronica RF645 is just easier to have along at all times. I very much like both systems, so which I carry depends on mood and circumstances.

I have two Pentax 6x7, two Pentax 67II, two Pentax 645NII, two Bronica RF645, a Fuji GS645S, GA645Wi, and GW670III. Of these I'm not so fond of the GW670, seems a bit of a crude clunker compared with the classy Bronica. I've used Hasselblad and Mamiya TLR too but that's just not my thing. The P645NII is very sophisticated, loaded with convenient modern features, easily handled, and if you like zoom lenses there are choices covering the entire focal-length range (with the tradeoff of bulk and weight of course, but manageable). Zooms on the P67 are larger; I have the 55-100mm and that's not something I'd willingly carry around!

 

[Spider67]

Concerning old 6x9 RFs in that case the Moskva 3&5:

I used them for portrait an the parallax is massive! Although I tried to compensate I missed at least one quarter of the frame. Also it may be necessary to adjust the Rf. Depth of field is very small.....so I would go with an SLR or a newer RF (if you can affford it)

 

[infrequent]

I second the 500C or newer Hasselblad. Quite small (with a WLF not much bigger than the typical TLR), and easy to handhold down to 1/30 at least with a Planar. Also, you might be surprised how affordable these are nowadays.

Roland.

whats the going price for a user hassy kit?

 

[ChrisPlatt]

The Bronica RF645 handles much like a good 35mm SLR.

Chris

 

[Turtle]

The Bronica RF645 handles much like a good 35mm SLR.

Chris

and better than many! It is beautifully simple to use. Despite having a Mamiya 7 kit, I just cannot sell mine!

 

[ChrisN]

Interesting question! I can throw in a comparison of the Hasselblad 6x6 and the Mamiya M645, if that is of interest. They are surprising close in size and weight, and similar in handling if you use the waist-level finder on both.

 

[ChrisN]

Last Sunday I had an outing with the family, and my (adult) daughter used the M645 with 100iso GP3 film while I shot with the Hassy and HP5. The lens on the Hassy is a bit sharper in resolution, if you are into pixel-peeping or big enlargements. Here's our two takes on the same subject. Square is the Hassy of course.

I thought Cathy did pretty well for her first outing with a film camera, and using a hand-held meter! I got her to do her own developing and scanning, too. Both cameras were shot off tripods. 🙂

 

[ferider]

whats the going price for a user hassy kit?

Maybe around US 150 for the body with WLF (C or EL), US 100 for one back, and around US 250 for a T* 80/2.8 or so (in BGN condition).

Best,

Roland.

 

[kevin m]

Is the Hassy, or any 6x6 or bigger MF SLR really hand-holdable, though? I'm leaning towards a 645 SLR (or an RF) to get hand-holding ability. If I have to lock the thing down on a tripod the majority of the time, what the heck, I might as well go 4x5. 😀

Does the "reciprocal of focal length" rule apply to MF SLR's as it does 35mm SLRs? I.E., can one safely hand hold an 80mm lens at 1/80th? 😕

 

[shadowfox]

Kevin,

I'm in a quite stressful (more so than it ought to be) decision point to whether sell my Mamiya 645 1000s kit or not.

A brick that thing is, and I lost a few frames because I accidentally push on the shutter release when handling the camera in and out of the bag.

But I have so many shots that I personally like from that camera and the lenses, oh the lenses, they are just ...

45mm/2.8

 

[JohnL]

My MF kit is based around a Mamiya RB67 body. IMHO, it's too heavy for carrying about (useful for self-defense though), but my use of it is mainly indoors. It produces great quality and the price (used) was very reasonable ... about $2K including 4 lenses, 2 backs and a prism finder.

 

[jan normandale]

Abbazz is on the money regarding a good MF camera from Fuji and the images from that camera are very good. Go to flickr and do a search you should have lots to look through from both the 6x9 and the 6x4.5.

I've a few MF's and one not raised here is the Bronica Etrsi it's a SLR with a 6x4.5 neg and is now exceedingly affordable. Has a wide selection of reasonably priced glass and backs. You can take it and a couple of backs for a day in a bag with a 100mm, 75mm, and a 50mm and shoot all day.

Lens prices are sub 200$ in the bargain category at KEH. Image quality is very good. This system was popular with wedding photographers who needed image quality or they didn't get paid. There is a metered prism which makes the entire camera almost as easy as a 'point and shoot MF' with primes. Nice.

Here are two shots the first is from the Fuji 6x9; the second is from the Bronica ETRSi

link to Bronica ETRSi image