johank
Established
I have a prewar II that has a factory aftermounted flash shoe on left side. In a prospect from 1949 I have read that that operation and afterservice coating of lenses where offerd.
1947 Jena Contax II
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sevo
Fokutorendaburando
The general assumption is that they were made on the new production lines they constructed and tested prior to shipping to Kiev - perhaps as test runs, perhaps a little more than that, with the side intention to give the involved parts of the Zeiss conglomerate some source of income to enable them for that task.
The new production lines had to be built as the original Dresden factory seized by the Soviets had been destroyed in transport (or perhaps due to poor installation by the Kiev locals), so that the Soviets ordered a new full set of factory equipment to be built from scratch and installed by German consultants.
Jacques M.
Established
Thanks, sevo.
I know that there were several batches of these Jena-Contaxes.
Its' about the last one I put a question.
The three production lines were made at Saalfeld by the Germans for the Russians, at their demand. Pre production cameras (Jena-Contaxes and Jena-Kievs) were first mounted, then the normal production beginning in 1948 by 11xxx, 14xxx, 15xxx, 18xxx, 27xxx, 28xxx and 30xxx. I don't forget the first Kievs made in 1947 from Dresden parts.
But the 30xxx series were mounted from 1951, so well after these three lines were transported and in production at Kiev's. At that time, the name "Contax" was reserved to the Contaxes made at Oberkochen.
Hence my question: why this last series of Jena-Contaxes?
Amitiés. Jacques.
I know that there were several batches of these Jena-Contaxes.
Its' about the last one I put a question.
The three production lines were made at Saalfeld by the Germans for the Russians, at their demand. Pre production cameras (Jena-Contaxes and Jena-Kievs) were first mounted, then the normal production beginning in 1948 by 11xxx, 14xxx, 15xxx, 18xxx, 27xxx, 28xxx and 30xxx. I don't forget the first Kievs made in 1947 from Dresden parts.
But the 30xxx series were mounted from 1951, so well after these three lines were transported and in production at Kiev's. At that time, the name "Contax" was reserved to the Contaxes made at Oberkochen.
Hence my question: why this last series of Jena-Contaxes?
Amitiés. Jacques.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Might have been another unmentioned production line, or parts thereof, to test at Jena/Saalfeld. Or simply a political move - the relations between Zeiss East and West (at that time nominally still subsidiaries of the same bi-national foundation) were complex and they still had dependencies on each other. The Soviets could not simply order them around, but had to negotiate for compromises.
By the way. there never has been a Contax made at Oberkochen - the Contax IIa/IIIa were made by Zeiss Ikon at their factory in Stuttgart. Oberkochen is the headquarters of Carl Zeiss (West), the lens makers, not of Zeiss Ikon.
That the Kiev production lines (and some Contax II cameras) were assembled at Saalfeld, a plant assigned to Carl Zeiss Jena, not Zeiss Ikon, was a unique exception. Presumably caused by the Soviets directing their reparation claims against the Zeiss Stiftung, the holding owning both CZJ and ZI. What with the large scale bomb damage to Dresden and the US Army having ransacked the (fairly well-preserved) Carl Zeiss Saalfeld plants before their withdrawal westward, CZJ sat on lots of empty factory space, while ZI had little to none. For whatever reason, the "Jena" Saalfeld cameras were branded Carl Zeiss Jena - perhaps as a demonstration of the internal rivalries among the Zeiss daughter companies, or maybe the Zeiss foundation wanted to keep the redeveloping Dresden Zeiss Ikon (in whose Contax S SLR they saw the key to re-establishing themselves) below the radar.
Pioneer
Veteran
Since it appears that the experts disagree about the exterior attributes of a Jena Contax, what about the shutter makes it quite obvious to everyone that these are not just pre-war cameras or Russian/Ukraine forgeries?
Jacques M.
Established
I don't understand what you mean about the "exterior attributes" of Jena Contaxes, Pioneer. They are well known, as it seems to me, and somewhat different from those of Contaxes or Kievs...
No doubt that a regular production of these cameras was made, probably around 1500. But of course, fakes exist, among the "cream" samples, for example...
No doubt that a regular production of these cameras was made, probably around 1500. But of course, fakes exist, among the "cream" samples, for example...
_goodtimez
Well-known
Jacques M.
Established
Ha ha!
About the IIa/IIIa, of course you are right, sevo. I should have written "by", not "at" Oberkochen. Too fast.
And I think too that the Jena-Contaxes were made for political reasons. After the first trials of the three lines (4 cipher numbers), it was evident for the Russians that the lines were perfectly working. So, no real need to produce 1500 other cameras.
Unless if there are gifts needed for some high ranked officials, or a fair where one can show to the entire world how good are the cameras made behind the iron curtain. If I am not wrong, the "cream" Jena Contaxes (27xxx series) were produced for the 1950 Photokina. The last series (this famous 30xxx batch) can have been mounted for the same reason, only as a symbol.
Most of these cameras are almost new, always now: a reason more. I think of the TSVVS too, which had more or less the same life. But all that is only hypothesis.
Jacques.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
It is not "by" either - Zeiss Ikon was a separate entity. They did not have that much to do with Carl Zeiss other than the same parent holding.
Jacques M.
Established
Last (but not least !)...
It's interesting to point that some tens of cameras, without serial number, were made to test the production lines (I own one of them). Then, the Jena-Contax parts were certainly all produced in 1946/47. At the same time, the machine tools were progressively dismounted to be sent to USSR. The Jena-Contaxes we know were made "at the demand" with these original parts.
Presumably.
It's interesting to point that some tens of cameras, without serial number, were made to test the production lines (I own one of them). Then, the Jena-Contax parts were certainly all produced in 1946/47. At the same time, the machine tools were progressively dismounted to be sent to USSR. The Jena-Contaxes we know were made "at the demand" with these original parts.
Presumably.
Pioneer
Veteran
Perhaps.
That still doesn't define what is different about the Jena Contax shutter which allegedly allows one to settle the issue once and for all. .
Jacques M.
Established
If I understand, you doubt of the authenticity of this series, in spite of the numerous details which are distinctive, compared to the Kievs or the Dresden Contaxes.
For me, I don't see why this question of shutters would be conclusive. If you compare shutters/ribbons made at Dresden to those made at Jena, there can be differences, no? And you normally find shutters/ribbons of wartime Dresden Contaxes on 1947 Kievs, and up to 1952, on some rare ones... If they were not repaired.
That said, I will send one of my Jena-Contaxes to a friend for a complete demontage in some weeks. He will compare it to a Dresden Contax and an early Kiev. Of course, I will give you the results.
For me, I don't see why this question of shutters would be conclusive. If you compare shutters/ribbons made at Dresden to those made at Jena, there can be differences, no? And you normally find shutters/ribbons of wartime Dresden Contaxes on 1947 Kievs, and up to 1952, on some rare ones... If they were not repaired.
That said, I will send one of my Jena-Contaxes to a friend for a complete demontage in some weeks. He will compare it to a Dresden Contax and an early Kiev. Of course, I will give you the results.
Highway 61
Revisited
The shutter was never considered to be the key of the plot re. that "Jena Contax topic". Don't confuse the "Jena Contaxes" with the "no-name Contaxes" made in the early 1960s and which were genuine Kiev 4a bodies with an anonymous front plate and fitted with some NOS CZJ f/2 Sonnars made at Jena in 1947-1951, to be sold abroad the iron curtain as kits.
The Contax made at Saalfeld in 1946-1947 are very likely to have the very same shutters as the last cameras made at Dresden in 1944. Then, after the first Kievs went into production, the modified shutters (using the thicker ribbon woven at the Arsenal plant) are very likely to be found on the last Contax bodies made at Saalfeld too. But this doesn't prove anything, nor doesn't bring out anything new.
Pioneer
Veteran
Thanks Jacques M and Highway 61. I do not doubt that some Contax cameras were produced in Jena after the war.
What I am beginning to doubt is whether anyone can say for sure that they do or do not have one of these elusive cameras. There are so many potential variations in those very early post war years, with no apparent records to document these cameras.
Ebay sellers are able to make a number of claims that cannot be absolutely verified. If you count up the many cameras sold as Jena Contax cameras then the production during that time must have been excellent.
I am not doubting that you and a few others on this forum may have cameras that come from this time period but, without clear provenance, how can anyone else be sure?
What I am beginning to doubt is whether anyone can say for sure that they do or do not have one of these elusive cameras. There are so many potential variations in those very early post war years, with no apparent records to document these cameras.
Ebay sellers are able to make a number of claims that cannot be absolutely verified. If you count up the many cameras sold as Jena Contax cameras then the production during that time must have been excellent.
I am not doubting that you and a few others on this forum may have cameras that come from this time period but, without clear provenance, how can anyone else be sure?
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I thought Barringer's article I linked to gave a decent run down of characteristics—what are your thoughts on that?
Jacques M.
Established
Yes, I think too that Barringer's article is a very good approach, with fine photos. It was made in 1999, and since that year, the datas have been completed and we have a more precise knowledge of these cameras.
Some other sources: Kuc's books (On the trail of the Contax) and Werner Widder's report (who was an assembler at Jena), Peter Hennig's article (Kiev rangefinders) and those of Bernd K. Otto (Von der Karl Zeiss Jena zur Kiev) are always very interesting and "younger". If I can quote myself, a more recent discussion about the comparison Jena Contax/Contax O series in USSRphoto: http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1639&SearchTerms=kiev,forerunner. And Sasaki's book, unhappily unavailable, alas.
Certainly, these cameras are not completely known, even now. For example, why this "heavy" back on the last batches?
Amitiés. Jacques.
Some other sources: Kuc's books (On the trail of the Contax) and Werner Widder's report (who was an assembler at Jena), Peter Hennig's article (Kiev rangefinders) and those of Bernd K. Otto (Von der Karl Zeiss Jena zur Kiev) are always very interesting and "younger". If I can quote myself, a more recent discussion about the comparison Jena Contax/Contax O series in USSRphoto: http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1639&SearchTerms=kiev,forerunner. And Sasaki's book, unhappily unavailable, alas.
Certainly, these cameras are not completely known, even now. For example, why this "heavy" back on the last batches?
Amitiés. Jacques.
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