alternatve
Well-known
Hello to all,
I'm testing the waters of medium format photography and want to learn more about 2x3 cameras which, if I understand, accepts 120 roll film. I love the way a press camera feels and handles and want to try on my own tilting and shifting, but don't want the bulk nor the 4x5 format... yet as I can't support it as well as 35mm and 120. I'm probably going to use it for landscape, architecture and possibly portrait shots, if I don't scare people away with it in the first place. Information is rather spotty on the web and LF users in my home country are few and far between.
Thus, I wish to know:
-What are the disadvantages with a 2x3 camera compared to a real 4x5 press camera?
-Are all graflock backs from all manufactuers useable?
-Am I sane to think about using such a camera when I came from a 35mm background?
-What are the makes and models of 2x3 cameras to look out for?
-Are the lenses used by 4x5 cameras all useable on a 2x3 camera? If not, how do I look for one that is useable?
-Is it alright to use a "small" format on such a big camera?
-Any other cavents?
It's alright if you sigh after 1,231,1232 such requests, and I would appreciate if you would simply point me in the right direction if you are too tired to type out the same response yet again
Thank you, and feel free to correct me if I have said anything wrong.
Samuel
I'm testing the waters of medium format photography and want to learn more about 2x3 cameras which, if I understand, accepts 120 roll film. I love the way a press camera feels and handles and want to try on my own tilting and shifting, but don't want the bulk nor the 4x5 format... yet as I can't support it as well as 35mm and 120. I'm probably going to use it for landscape, architecture and possibly portrait shots, if I don't scare people away with it in the first place. Information is rather spotty on the web and LF users in my home country are few and far between.
Thus, I wish to know:
-What are the disadvantages with a 2x3 camera compared to a real 4x5 press camera?
-Are all graflock backs from all manufactuers useable?
-Am I sane to think about using such a camera when I came from a 35mm background?
-What are the makes and models of 2x3 cameras to look out for?
-Are the lenses used by 4x5 cameras all useable on a 2x3 camera? If not, how do I look for one that is useable?
-Is it alright to use a "small" format on such a big camera?
-Any other cavents?
It's alright if you sigh after 1,231,1232 such requests, and I would appreciate if you would simply point me in the right direction if you are too tired to type out the same response yet again
Thank you, and feel free to correct me if I have said anything wrong.
Samuel
FPjohn
Well-known
Hello:
A Century Graphic (economical) or a Linhof Tech 70/ Baby Master Technica (expensive) would make a fine landscape and portrait camera. Architecture would lead you to the likes of the 6x9 Ebonies and Arca Swiss field and monorail view cameras. The horseman backs are the standard and preferred graflock backs. 645, 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9 backs are also available. Linhof has its own back not compatible with Graflock.
Extreme wide angle work is more difficult on most 6x9s and the lens choice is restricted.
yours
Frank
A Century Graphic (economical) or a Linhof Tech 70/ Baby Master Technica (expensive) would make a fine landscape and portrait camera. Architecture would lead you to the likes of the 6x9 Ebonies and Arca Swiss field and monorail view cameras. The horseman backs are the standard and preferred graflock backs. 645, 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9 backs are also available. Linhof has its own back not compatible with Graflock.
Extreme wide angle work is more difficult on most 6x9s and the lens choice is restricted.
yours
Frank
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W
wlewisiii
Guest
Hello Samuel,
As a happy user of a 2x3 Baby Speed Graphic as well as 2 4x5 Graphics, I hope I can answer your questions for you.
The 2x3 Graphic is the same camera as the 4x5, just writ smaller. This means they share pluses and minuses: minimal movements, limited bellows draw and so forth.
The graflok backs provide a standard of attaching accessories. The back itself may be different on different brands of cameras, but they will have the same connections allowing the same, for example, roll film backs to be used. Whatever camera you get, simply get one that has a graflok back - if it doesn't, don't bother no matter how "good" the price may be.
For a great listing of 2x3 cameras and their respective strengths and weaknesses see: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup2x3.html
Lenses are a different kettle of fish. 4x5 lenses will work though most will be rather long focus lenses on the smaller format. Instead look for lenses like the Kodak Ektar 101/4.5 and 127/4.7 - the 127 is _the_ press camera lens on 4x5 where it is a moderate wide angle with little capacity for movements. On a 2x3 it will be a slightly longer than normal lens with ample movements. It is one of the great lenses and easy to find inexpensivly since it was so popular back in the day.
I use a 1938 Carl Zeiss Jena 105mm/3.5 in a Compur Rapid on mine - this is basically a normal lens on the 6x7 format I use. There are many other good lenses out there as well.
Good information resources (if you haven't already read them):
http://www.graflex.org
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/
As for sanity, well, I leave that up to you
I shoot 35, (6x6, 6x7, 6x9) & 4x5 on a fairly large variety of cameras (see my .sig ) so my objectivity is non-existent. Only you can decide if you enjoy using this format and style of camera. I enjoy it and find people react positively to my baby Speed after decades of it being what a "CAMERA" looks like.
Hope this helps,
William
As a happy user of a 2x3 Baby Speed Graphic as well as 2 4x5 Graphics, I hope I can answer your questions for you.
The 2x3 Graphic is the same camera as the 4x5, just writ smaller. This means they share pluses and minuses: minimal movements, limited bellows draw and so forth.
The graflok backs provide a standard of attaching accessories. The back itself may be different on different brands of cameras, but they will have the same connections allowing the same, for example, roll film backs to be used. Whatever camera you get, simply get one that has a graflok back - if it doesn't, don't bother no matter how "good" the price may be.
For a great listing of 2x3 cameras and their respective strengths and weaknesses see: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup2x3.html
Lenses are a different kettle of fish. 4x5 lenses will work though most will be rather long focus lenses on the smaller format. Instead look for lenses like the Kodak Ektar 101/4.5 and 127/4.7 - the 127 is _the_ press camera lens on 4x5 where it is a moderate wide angle with little capacity for movements. On a 2x3 it will be a slightly longer than normal lens with ample movements. It is one of the great lenses and easy to find inexpensivly since it was so popular back in the day.
I use a 1938 Carl Zeiss Jena 105mm/3.5 in a Compur Rapid on mine - this is basically a normal lens on the 6x7 format I use. There are many other good lenses out there as well.
Good information resources (if you haven't already read them):
http://www.graflex.org
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/
As for sanity, well, I leave that up to you
I shoot 35, (6x6, 6x7, 6x9) & 4x5 on a fairly large variety of cameras (see my .sig ) so my objectivity is non-existent. Only you can decide if you enjoy using this format and style of camera. I enjoy it and find people react positively to my baby Speed after decades of it being what a "CAMERA" looks like. Hope this helps,
William
David Goldfarb
Well-known
If you go for a Linhof 23 and want to use the rangefinder, try to find one in a kit with three cammed lenses. They're wonderful cameras, and the quality of Linhof service is first rate, but I've been waiting for my Tech V 23b to come back from Marflex to have three lenses cammed and a few small repairs since April. Wait times may be different in other countries or if you deal directly with the factory.
The Super-Rollex backs also have excellent film flatness. You'll really notice the difference.
Avoid old Linhof Rollex backs with the knob wind, though (Super-Rollex backs have a lever wind). Because of the way they are designed, they sometimes have overlapping frames with certain modern films due to the thickness of the film base and paper backing.
The Super-Rollex backs also have excellent film flatness. You'll really notice the difference.
Avoid old Linhof Rollex backs with the knob wind, though (Super-Rollex backs have a lever wind). Because of the way they are designed, they sometimes have overlapping frames with certain modern films due to the thickness of the film base and paper backing.
kuzano
Veteran
Architecture implies camera with movements
Architecture implies camera with movements
Such as a bellows, and the previous post listed a couple of nice ones. The most reasonably priced entry level camera is the Graflex Century Graphic.
Graflok is Graflok... it's a patented film back coupling method. If you have a graflok 2X3 (6X9) film back it will fit all 2X3 graflok equipped cameras.
You also can use 2X3 cut sheet film holders if you like, but roll film is more more convenient.
Architecture photography pretty much implies a camera with front rise/fall and other simple movements. A camera with movements allows a myriad of focus and perspective controls.
Backs come in 6X4.5, 6X6, 6X7, and 6X9. There are backs made for the Graflok mount by many manufacturers, and again including Graflex. The biggest consideration for purchasing backs is film flatness. Early knob type Graflex backs were OK, but later lever backs with extra pin rollers inside were better. Horseman, Linhof and others make very expensive backs that supposedly deal with film flatness best.
Lenses come in many varieties, with the normal focal length for 2X3 being 90mm or 100mm.
You've opened the door to a vast storehouse of information and a huge inventory sitting out there unused. At any given time the number of listings on eBay total around 600 items in the large format category up to 5X7. If you go for cameras with bellows and movements (best choice for architecture because of the correction of merging lines), then most of the Graflex Centuries will be in that category, along with other smaller large format cameras.
Learn the difference between field type cameras... Century, Linhof, Horseman, Toyo, etc. and monorail or rail cameras for the smaller large format.
If you are inclined toward typical rangefinder or SLR 2X3 (6X9) cameras, like Pentax, Fuji, Bronica, Mamiya, or the later press cameras, you will be giving up perspective control (converging lines on architecture) and focus controls (near/far focus control) because fixed lens cameras do not allow such correction as a rule.
www.graflex.org is a great place to start your search. Look at the Graflex Graphic section where they talk about the larger 4X5's, and the smaller Century 2X3 format.
Architecture implies camera with movements
Such as a bellows, and the previous post listed a couple of nice ones. The most reasonably priced entry level camera is the Graflex Century Graphic.
Graflok is Graflok... it's a patented film back coupling method. If you have a graflok 2X3 (6X9) film back it will fit all 2X3 graflok equipped cameras.
You also can use 2X3 cut sheet film holders if you like, but roll film is more more convenient.
Architecture photography pretty much implies a camera with front rise/fall and other simple movements. A camera with movements allows a myriad of focus and perspective controls.
Backs come in 6X4.5, 6X6, 6X7, and 6X9. There are backs made for the Graflok mount by many manufacturers, and again including Graflex. The biggest consideration for purchasing backs is film flatness. Early knob type Graflex backs were OK, but later lever backs with extra pin rollers inside were better. Horseman, Linhof and others make very expensive backs that supposedly deal with film flatness best.
Lenses come in many varieties, with the normal focal length for 2X3 being 90mm or 100mm.
You've opened the door to a vast storehouse of information and a huge inventory sitting out there unused. At any given time the number of listings on eBay total around 600 items in the large format category up to 5X7. If you go for cameras with bellows and movements (best choice for architecture because of the correction of merging lines), then most of the Graflex Centuries will be in that category, along with other smaller large format cameras.
Learn the difference between field type cameras... Century, Linhof, Horseman, Toyo, etc. and monorail or rail cameras for the smaller large format.
If you are inclined toward typical rangefinder or SLR 2X3 (6X9) cameras, like Pentax, Fuji, Bronica, Mamiya, or the later press cameras, you will be giving up perspective control (converging lines on architecture) and focus controls (near/far focus control) because fixed lens cameras do not allow such correction as a rule.
www.graflex.org is a great place to start your search. Look at the Graflex Graphic section where they talk about the larger 4X5's, and the smaller Century 2X3 format.
alternatve
Well-known
Thank you for all your help.
So, I can buy a camera without a lens and mount almost any lens using a lens board? I assume the lens board is special for the different models of cameras available, so how do I go about obtaining them?
Also, I would like to focus using the ground glass, would that be a good idea? Or would using (and possibly obtaining) the rangefinder be a better idea?
Samuel
So, I can buy a camera without a lens and mount almost any lens using a lens board? I assume the lens board is special for the different models of cameras available, so how do I go about obtaining them?
Also, I would like to focus using the ground glass, would that be a good idea? Or would using (and possibly obtaining) the rangefinder be a better idea?
Samuel
W
wlewisiii
Guest
alternatve said:
There are a number of different types, but once you have gotten a camera then you can look a number of places. For older Graphics, they are wood & can be made easily. Otherwise they show up on ebay frequently.
One of the fun things about the press cameras is the sheer versatility of them. Ground glass on tripod? Yep. RF handheld? Yep. Scale focused point & shoot? Yep. Heck I once balanced a 4x5 Speed on my knees while focusing on the ground glass. Not the smartest thing I've ever done, but the image worked well. For landscape & architectural, using the glass on a tripod is probably your best option. However, if you get a camera that has an RF, adjust it to your lens so you have all your options available.
William
David Goldfarb
Well-known
You can find used lensboards, have them made for you, or make them yourself. Some places like www.mpex.com or www.lensandrepro.com usually have them, sometimes even new ones they've ordered in batches. For cameras that are still in production like Linhof, you can buy new ones.
In general, with LF cameras you can use any lens on any camera. If the lens is a non-standard size, you just have the lensboard machined with an appropriately sized hole. So there's usually no problem using a modern lens with an ancient camera, or a classic lens with a new camera, as long as the lens can physically mount on the camera (i.e., it's not too big). There are some that use helical mounts (more expensive) that are specific to a particular camera, but these are less common.
Groundglass and rangefinder focusing serve different purposes, and both can be useful. To use camera movements, you have to use the groundglass, but it's also handy to be able to pick up the camera and shoot it like a big Leica or use the rangefinder for portraits or moving subjects, so you can check focus with a filmholder in the back.
In general, with LF cameras you can use any lens on any camera. If the lens is a non-standard size, you just have the lensboard machined with an appropriately sized hole. So there's usually no problem using a modern lens with an ancient camera, or a classic lens with a new camera, as long as the lens can physically mount on the camera (i.e., it's not too big). There are some that use helical mounts (more expensive) that are specific to a particular camera, but these are less common.
Groundglass and rangefinder focusing serve different purposes, and both can be useful. To use camera movements, you have to use the groundglass, but it's also handy to be able to pick up the camera and shoot it like a big Leica or use the rangefinder for portraits or moving subjects, so you can check focus with a filmholder in the back.
venchka
Veteran
Buy a complete camera
Buy a complete camera
These things come along all the time complete & ready to go. While you can put a variety of lenses on the correct board for your camera there are limits. Have you been to the Graflex or large format web pages yet? A lot is explained there. Absolutely wait for a camera with a built in functioning rangefinder. Adding one later is not a viable option. Also, stick to the popular brands, Graflex being the most popular and therefore the most plentiful.
2x3 cameras are something like orphans today. 4x5 hardware seems much more readily available. I don't know for a fact, but I'm guessing that there is a larger selection of sheet film in 4x5. On the other hand, you can shoot rollfilm in a rollfilm back on either 2x3 or 4x5. Not the same back though. You need different rollfilm backs for each format.
All things considered, the difference in bulk isn't that great between 2x3 and 4x5. They both handle the same. You won't get a picture any faster with 2x3 than you could with 4x5. There are more 4x5 cameras around. More lenses around. The negatives are BIGGER. You can shoot Polaroid material in 4x5. I don't know if that's true with 2x3. For those reasons I would seriously consider 4x5.
Buy a complete camera
alternatve said:
These things come along all the time complete & ready to go. While you can put a variety of lenses on the correct board for your camera there are limits. Have you been to the Graflex or large format web pages yet? A lot is explained there. Absolutely wait for a camera with a built in functioning rangefinder. Adding one later is not a viable option. Also, stick to the popular brands, Graflex being the most popular and therefore the most plentiful.
2x3 cameras are something like orphans today. 4x5 hardware seems much more readily available. I don't know for a fact, but I'm guessing that there is a larger selection of sheet film in 4x5. On the other hand, you can shoot rollfilm in a rollfilm back on either 2x3 or 4x5. Not the same back though. You need different rollfilm backs for each format.
All things considered, the difference in bulk isn't that great between 2x3 and 4x5. They both handle the same. You won't get a picture any faster with 2x3 than you could with 4x5. There are more 4x5 cameras around. More lenses around. The negatives are BIGGER. You can shoot Polaroid material in 4x5. I don't know if that's true with 2x3. For those reasons I would seriously consider 4x5.
venchka
Veteran
Here's one
Here's one
Here's a complete camera kit. Look for something like this. Actually, the buy it now price for this isn't too bad.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Graflex-Century-Graphic-w-Red-Bellow-Beautiful-2x3_W0QQitemZ270195269839QQihZ017QQcategoryZ15247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
Here's one
Here's a complete camera kit. Look for something like this. Actually, the buy it now price for this isn't too bad.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Graflex-Century-Graphic-w-Red-Bellow-Beautiful-2x3_W0QQitemZ270195269839QQihZ017QQcategoryZ15247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
David Goldfarb
Well-known
Yes, there are more film types available in 4x5" than 2x3".
There are Polaroid backs for some 2x3" cameras, but they are much less common than Polaroid backs for 4x5".
My 2x3" Technika is lighter and smaller and quicker to handle than the 4x5", but I think that's the case only because I have some experience with larger formats. My first LF camera was an 8x10", because it felt more intuitive and was easier to see what was happening on the big groundglass than with a smaller camera. I only found it easy to shoot 4x5" and later 2x3" when I was comfortable with 8x10". With 2x3" the groundglass is small and movements are slight, so I think it's more challenging for beginners than a 4x5" or larger camera.
There are Polaroid backs for some 2x3" cameras, but they are much less common than Polaroid backs for 4x5".
My 2x3" Technika is lighter and smaller and quicker to handle than the 4x5", but I think that's the case only because I have some experience with larger formats. My first LF camera was an 8x10", because it felt more intuitive and was easier to see what was happening on the big groundglass than with a smaller camera. I only found it easy to shoot 4x5" and later 2x3" when I was comfortable with 8x10". With 2x3" the groundglass is small and movements are slight, so I think it's more challenging for beginners than a 4x5" or larger camera.
venchka
Veteran
The Linhof 23's sure look nice. All Linhofs look nice.
sienarot
Well-known
FYI,
Someone on APUG is selling a Busch Pressman 2x3 with a 101mm f/4.5 lens, 5 backs, and 2 boxes of film for $135 USD. If you'd like, I can send you his contact information.
Someone on APUG is selling a Busch Pressman 2x3 with a 101mm f/4.5 lens, 5 backs, and 2 boxes of film for $135 USD. If you'd like, I can send you his contact information.
alternatve
Well-known
sienarot said:
Isn't a Busch Pressman incompatible with graflock backs, even though I've read that they are very capable cameras in their own right.
Samuel
ChrisN
Striving
I don't believe anyone has mentioned that the rangefinder in a press camera is usually cammed for a particular focal length, so you can't switch freely between lenses and expect the rangefinder to accurately focus different focal length lenses. On some cameras the rangefinder can be adjusted for different lenses, or the cam replaced, but that can be a messy business and is not undertaken lightly.
alternatve
Well-known
ChrisN said:
I've read about this online and I must say that the entire affair makes replacing lenses on a Argus C3 positively hassle free. Which is why I would rather use the ground glass.
Incidently, would it be possible to use an external rangefinder, get the distance from it and dial it in yourself?
Samuel
ChrisN
Striving
Yes, certainly, but once again you will need to calibrate the lens and the bellows adjustment for infinity, and have or create a scale on the bed. Focusing on the ground glass may well be a lot simpler!
alternatve
Well-known
ChrisN said:
Now I know why SLRs killed the rangefinder. It's all getting too much for me, I need a sit and a drink.
Would it be possible to focus using the ground glass and compose using the viewfinder, handheld? I dislike using tripods.
Samuel
ChrisN
Striving
No, you could not hold the camera steady enough for accurate focusing on the ground glass. Using the ground glass really requires a tripod. Hand-held use really needs a calibrated rangefinder. Perhaps with a small aperture for greatest depth-of-field, you might get away with it, but I'd expect a lot of poorly-focused shots (from my limited experience).
If you select the right lens for the rangefinder, and stick to just that lens, it is not too difficult to get the camera, lens and rangefinder calibrated. The Graflex Graphic cameras (either Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic) would be a good choice for starting out as they were designed to be used hand-held, but are also quite good for shooting off a tripod in a more deliberate fashion. There is also plenty of good information about them available on the web, and free copies of the original manuals.
Have you studied www.graflex.org? That is a good place to start.
Good luck!
If you select the right lens for the rangefinder, and stick to just that lens, it is not too difficult to get the camera, lens and rangefinder calibrated. The Graflex Graphic cameras (either Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic) would be a good choice for starting out as they were designed to be used hand-held, but are also quite good for shooting off a tripod in a more deliberate fashion. There is also plenty of good information about them available on the web, and free copies of the original manuals.
Have you studied www.graflex.org? That is a good place to start.
Good luck!
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Samuel - folding press cameras are what separate the men from the boys. Their use is more of a craft as opposed to casual use.
My preference is for 6x9 fixed-lens RF cameras. I more often than not use a tripod even with these hand-holdable 6x9 RF's, (see my signature below), . This is 8 exposures on 120. You might as well make them count.
Seriously, if you are lazy or easily befuddled - run - don't walk to a more automated camera.
My preference is for 6x9 fixed-lens RF cameras. I more often than not use a tripod even with these hand-holdable 6x9 RF's, (see my signature below), . This is 8 exposures on 120. You might as well make them count.
Seriously, if you are lazy or easily befuddled - run - don't walk to a more automated camera.
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