5 Pontz-6.7 million Law Suit Award

stompyq said:
It might help if you read what I wrote. Unlike you, I wasn't personally attacking you. I really don't care. I presented my point of view.
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Pro-Mone,

I get that it was not a personal attack, but come on who is accualy being greedy in this case. Can you not conceed that this developer bypassed the law and was uncivil?

If the 21 artists get the 6.7 million eventually it is a windfall. This is unlikely though and pretty obvious that this will be appealed.

Who is really making the money here? Is greedy artists a gross exaggeration?

BTW I'm not attacking you, but I'm kinda digging into the facts of the case that you disregard and don't respond to. Did the landlord not follow the rule of law in a consistent manner? I'm confronting your thinking.

Again when I think of greed I don't think of artists, I think of landlords, bankers and real estate developers, not artists. I don't think I have to think of your association of greed as personal to find it offensive.

Cal
 
finguanzo said:
In Elizabeth NJ it is illegal for a women to walk down the streets on a Sunday without a petticoat on.
Damn hooligans!

I take nothing in life serious, including what artists or developers do.I Ingest everything in jest.
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Fidel,

As you know many laws are not enforced, especially in NYC. I was really shocked to find out in Toronto they yield right of way, don't jay-walk, and that I saw not a single dog-turd. Then I learn that in NYC basically thee is only a few laws and things are a bit arbitrary as far as enforcement.

I do know how to stay out of jail. When I was younger I could easily outrun lots of cops, never got caught LOL.

I started this post for entertainment value. I find it amusing. There is a lot of debate here. Lots of opinions.

Pretty much this developer asked for it. I find his situation amusing. IMHO he asked for it.

Cal
 
The developer asked for it, yes, for breaking the city ordinance that required him to obtain a permit. Agreed. Not really sure if it’s a law..
But for the judge to take that and make it into a six million dollar judgement for the artists because he decided to do with his property what he wanted, is a bit rediculouse to me.

Let’s all forget that he’s a big greedy multimillionaire nyc developer, and think of him as José Luis, the guy who spent 40 years working to buy his 3 apartment building in Newark, nj, was kind enough to let kids make they’re art on his building because he enjoyed it, but now 10 years later can not afford the taxes on the building, so he has to sell it. No one is going to buy the building with a big mural on it, so decides to paint the brick. Is José Luis going to get sued for six million dollars,? Will a judge side with the artists in this situation.?
The law is the same for everyone, whether it be big developer or poor schlepp.
That’s my problem with this whole story..

End scene.
 
fireblade said:
Sometimes, the law is an ass.
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Kinda true. Many laws make no sense.

In Canada in Montreal and Toronto I found no dog-poop as booby traps in my wanderings, even in the poorer neighborhoods. Realize that I explored both Canadian cities fully on foot without ever using mass transportation.

Here in NYC one needs to be rather agile to avoid soiling the bottom of your shoes. This goes for rich neighborhoods as well as poor, although it is worse in the poorer areas. Many a times it is a hop-skip and a jump to avoid soiling one's shoes.

Interesting to note that in all three cities it is a $300.00 fine for not picking up after your dog. Evidently in Canada there is much more respect for the laws, and I assume the laws are enforced.

Overall I like the behavior of Canadians more than Americans. We Americans certainly are rude and impolite in comparison. Mucho A-hole in U.S. and I feel I can say that because I'm an American. LOL.

Cal
 
Calzone said:
Fidel,


I do know how to stay out of jail. When I was younger I could easily outrun lots of cops, never got caught LOL.


Cal
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So you think this is ok? This is a very enlightening thread Cal. Better be careful. One day you just might get caught
 
finguanzo said:
The developer asked for it, yes, for breaking the city ordinance that required him to obtain a permit. Agreed. Not really sure if it’s a law..
But for the judge to take that and make it into a six million dollar judgement for the artists because he decided to do with his property what he wanted, is a bit rediculouse to me.

Let’s all forget that he’s a big greedy multimillionaire nyc developer, and think of him as José Luis, the guy who spent 40 years working to buy his 3 apartment building in Newark, nj, was kind enough to let kids make they’re art on his building because he enjoyed it, but now 10 years later can not afford the taxes on the building, so he has to sell it. No one is going to buy the building with a big mural on it, so decides to paint the brick. Is José Luis going to get sued for six million dollars,? Will a judge side with the artists in this situation.?
The law is the same for everyone, whether it be big developer or poor schlepp.
That’s my problem with this whole story..

End scene.
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Fidel,

That certainly is the case for most people. A fourth part here are lawyers. I found out the hard way when getting divorced that it is the best interest of lawyers to drag out and create nasty fighting. This is how they protect their best interests and make the most money.

The bills added up fast, and it did not take long at $375.00 an hour to limit even a phone call because it cost me mucho money.

This is why some poor slob is always on the bottom of the scrow-tum pole.

Lawyers...

Talk about greed. I forgot about them. This is why I take offense at the suggestion that an artist can be greedy. Certain professions surely have an abundance of greedy people.

Cal
 
I’m not talking about greed, everyone is greedy. I’m talking about the judge making the same judgement no matter who you are or what your background is, which is the way it should be. If José Luis where in front of the judge, the artists would not be winning.
So In that scenario the artists not winning they’re case would be fine with you.? Or do you want José Luis to pay up 6 mil.? Are José and developer not equal as people.?

Either you side with artists rights, or you side with the building owner, regardless if it’s José Luis or millionaire. Can’t decide depending on who’s on that side, not how rights work..
 
Beemermark said:
So when does graffiti become art? If I spray somebody else's property in NYC than the owner is banned from the full use of his property?
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Of course not.

If I allow someone to spray paint my property and then decide to sell my property, is the new owner than prohibited from the use of his property? Interesting, probably a big reason why I see in the Carolina's so many NY & NJ license plates.
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I believe this is a special circumstance... since it was not just a building with some simple vandalism on it... it looked like this... and the owner allowed this for 30 years

5-pointz-demolition-5-725x477.jpg


Being arrogant, acting above the law and being greedy is not a criminal act. I know many arrogant people and unfortunately there is no law (at least in NC) to make them change their behavior. the idea of selling their property for money when they should be giving it to artists for free.
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Completely true...
 
stompyq said:
So you think this is ok? This is a very enlightening thread Cal. Better be careful. One day you just might get caught
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Pro-Mone,

Back in the 70's street fighting was frequent. There were no video cameras, and here in NYC the police were a joke. It was a different time when crime was expected and even tolerated.

Example: Drugs were rampant. Many people who did not live during that time don't know that basically illegal drugs were kinda legal. just like in the HBO series "The Wire" NYPD set up areas that kept illegal drug sales contained.

My friend Oscar, a Latino from the Southside of Williamsburg, told me that on South 2d Street right in front of the firehouse, one block from Bedford Avenue, pretty much the NYPD would have a cop car to ensure the drug traffic and dealing was restricted to this one block to keep drugs out of the rest of the neighborhood. LOL.

Since I grew up out on Long Island, we use to go to the upper parking lot in Alley Pond Park where drugs were sold openly like an outdoor flea market. A cop car stayed at the lower lot as a vigil. Understand that to get up to the upper parking lot it was one way in one way out. Over the years never got stopped.

Back in the 70's they had a separate police department just for the subway, and another police department for public housing.

Pretty much was a lawless time. Everyone kinda broke the law. Law basically was not enforced and it was a total free for all. The NYPD was not like it is today.

Last time I got chased by NYPD was about eight years ago. I was being chased by a NYPD helicopter on September 11th, 2010. I purposely stayed out of Madhattan and decided to trespass into the Dutch Kills railyard to climb a railroad tower to photograph Madhattan with this railyard in the foreground.

I shot a Rollie 3.5F and a Tele Rollieflex, I had to wait for NYPD helicopters to clear out of my shots, and then I heard a helicopter hovering directly over me. I threw my cameras into my Domke and scurried like a Cockroach hiding in the shadows as the chopper circled looking for me. My Cockroack impersonation worked and I eventually escaped without getting arrested.

Another time I got caught by three undercover cops in LIC. Heavy snowfall had knocked down a chain link fence over the winter that had secured some abandoned buildings. I was caught out in the open when a black towncar pulled up and three men dressed in black got out. It took a while to realize they were cops. It took a bit untill they got closer untill I saw the badgeholders.

Two of them detained me while the other made sure I was alone. Pretty much I talked my way out of getting arrested. I was caught red handed. The only thing that made sense is that these two hipsters I saw earlier called 911. My guess is seeing a skinny Chinese guy with a poney tail and camera was suspiscious. If you see something...

After that I no longer do my exploring. Oh I forgot I did recently trespass up in the Bronx with Andre and two Mormans. LOL. Oh-well.

Cal
 
finguanzo said:
I’m not talking about greed, everyone is greedy. I’m talking about the judge making the same judgement no matter who you are or what your background is, which is the way it should be. If José Luis where in front of the judge, the artists would not be winning.
So In that scenario the artists not winning they’re case would be fine with you.? Or do you want José Luis to pay up 6 mil.? Are José and developer not equal as people.?

Either you side with artists rights, or you side with the building owner, regardless if it’s José Luis or millionaire. Can’t decide depending on who’s on that side, not how rights work..
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Fidel,

I see your point on equity and equality. I will frame what I say feels right to me.

I support a bias against the man who enjoys privelage, and I would give mucho lee-way to the average guy or the disadvantaged.

As for greed, perhaps for me it has its limits. Andrew Carne-Gee made mucho money with his steel mills. He also is responsible for deadly working conditions and creating slums as he concentrated his empire and wealth. Later in life he kinda bought a "stairway to heaven" by setting up a foundation to redistribute wealth and mitigate the poverty he created.

Shame on him. If I won some grand lottery perhaps I would only keep 6-10 million to ensure a comfortable life. I would not need more luxury items because I already kinda have a lot, and any more is pointless. I'm pretty happy with all my possessions and perhaps only lust for a darkroom, a studio space, and perhaps a nice truck and or car. Really my life would only marginally different because I already am a happy guy that has more than my fair share.

So the surplus of my windfall I would try to help others and try to make the world a better and fairer place. There is greed and there is being greedy. At a certain point I can afford to do both.

I know injustice, I know discrimination, I know bias, and I know violence. My life experience imposes certain values of fairness, and sometimes justice should be appropriate. I do feel a sense of community and I do think it is Civic Duty that sometimes wealth and power has to be gauged into punishment. This is part of Civil Society.

Cal
 
Cal,

Early on I made the point that the award was bad for the arts because it will deter owners from allowing art on properties. Fair what's fair. There is nothing fair in life. But lets not screw up the incentives (or punishments) that make our society better.

I just don't see the serious crime here...

Joe
 
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