6x9 Folder Recommendations?

W

Way

Guest
Since getting my Super Isolette, the folder bug has bitten pretty hard and I'm now looking for a 6x9 folder. Any recommendations from you knowledgable folks? Good optics, reliabilty and probably a rangefinder would be nice.
 
I just received my Voigtlander Bessa II back from service with Jurgen Kreckel. It is a fantastic piece of machinery, a little heavy but the operation is wonderful and well suited to a left-hander. The lens (color-skopar) is very sharp and rivals some of the best in MF. The rangefinder is a little squinty although most rangefinders seem that way after using Leica Ms. I use an accessory Kontur 6x9 finder which is a delight, allowing shooting with both eyes open. This has been my only experience with 6x9 but would not hesitate to recommend the Bessa II.
Nick
 
Hello Way, the only 6x9 folder I have is the Super Ikonta 6x9. An apparatus with a victorian look, certainly not a 20th century design.
But it has a coupled (!) rangefinder and I was surprised that my pre-war version still works accurate without a CLA.
It makes beautifull pictures, with great depth, soft backgrounds and sharp in focus subjects.
Still I am not very used to shoot with the 6x9 format, but that's because all my other MF camera's are for the 6x6 size. I have only used this camera just a few times since I bought it, my simple Isolette II is in my bag almost all the time, because of its smallness, being less delicate, and my preference for the square format.
There must be a wide choice of good 6x9 folders (Bessa's), my Ikonta example was excellent and relatively cheap (125 euro's). Be aware of the technical condition of such a camera, it's best to hold such a camera in your own hands, testing everything hinge and bolt, diminishing risks.
Here a sample photo made with my Super Ikonta :
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=80217841&size=o
 
I had a "hard to find" combo ....

I had a "hard to find" combo ....

I like the Voigtlander offerings in old folders. I had an early Bessa RF (rangefinder) with a Heliar lens. The rangefinder mechanism was the same as the later Bessa II. But for a while the Bessa RF's were a lot less money than a nice Bessa II. Also, unlike the Bessa II, there was an internal mask (removable) which allowed me to shoot 6X4.5 and get 15 frames from a roll of 120. The cameras that offer this kind of option (not many) have two ruby windows on the back door, with slides to close them.

After I sold the RF, I found a rather rare combo. A Bessa 1, with a Color Skopar lens, a compur shutter (1/500th) and the internal mask (getting the mask with any of these is a real find). That camera was a real find. While it was front cell focusing, it had a slightly sturdier set of front standards than either of the two RF models, which made focusing a bit of a chore, but more reliable.

The Bessa RF had four lens choices. The Bessa 1, typically came with a Vaskar lens, and the Bessa II had 3 or four choices.

Know one thing about all folders in the 40's and 50's. They often came with a consumer or department store lens for the masses, an upgrade lens for the knowledgeable but frugal, and a high quality lens for the monied gentry and professionals. The lenses were triplets, 4 element and 5 element.

The Vaskar and Helomars were triplets, The Color Skopars were 4 element and later examples were coated better, and the Heliars were 5 element. There is one lens that puts a Bessa II in the over $2000 category. It uses Lanthanium (spelling?) in it's makeup.

This is true of many mfr folders. High end Zeiss Ikons used Zeiss glass, while middle of the road used Nettar.

Also, a good 6X9 folder that has been well cared for will take very nice pictures even with the Vaskar and Helomar lenses.

In nice condition:
Bessa RF's are selling for $250 to 500 depending on the lens
Bessa I's sell routinely around $100 with a Vaskar, $200 with a Color Skopar
Bessa II's routinely sell for $300 to over $2000 depending on lens. (I have only seen 3 Bessa II's with the Lanthanium based lens)
The dual format mask on either of the first two will generally add to the price and is difficult to find.

Another option is a copy of a Zeiss Ikon... the russian Moska5. It is a rangefinder, has the dual format option (watch for the plate accompanying the camera), and has been noted to have a nice lens. However, the russian quality issue is present on those cameras.

If I were going to buy a Moskva 5, I would probably only buy one that CERTO6 on eBay (Jurgen Kreckel) was selling. I have had him do repairs and bought from him. He is quite the folder man. Here is a link to his site. (not affiliated):

http://www.certo6.com/

The options are vast in the old folder market. If you know you only want a 6X9 camera, there are many to choose from. If you want the dual format option, which would fill out nicely around your 6X6, the market is somewhat limited.

Good luck. The market is rife with good, average, and poor examples.
 
6X9 suggestions...

6X9 suggestions...

I have a bessa 1 with the Vaskar lens, and I have to say that it produces excellent shots. I use a shoe mount rangefinder for it, it's a very slow and deliberate way to shoot, but I like the results. It is a very inovative camera in a lot of ways- the viewfinder has masks for close-ups to correct parallax and lots of exposure locks to keep you from double exposing. I don't have the 6x4.5 mask, but I have a rolleicord if I need smaller 120 (6X6) and don't really miss it. I think they are great cameras and highly recommend them!
 
The most important thing is going to be proper alignment otherwise the lens and the whole idea of shooting 6x9 goes out the window. Assuming that you cannot go wrong with Zeiss glass usually. Frankly I'd pay the premium for a good CLA'd and fully adjusted Jurgen camera. I have a Zeiss Ikon 6x6 folder from him (thru someone else) that is just awesome.

Example image here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rich8155/2075425099/
 
kuzano: I think the super-expensive lens that you're describing is the Apo-Lanthar.

Way: Another way to think about this, it depends what kind of look you're after. If you are after the sharp, contrast look, go with the ones with top lenses (Tessar, Solinar, Heliar, etc.).

But if you're looking for a romantic, vintage look, you can get the much cheaper lens (Novar, Vaskar, Agnar, Voigtar, etc.).

Here's a thread with samples from my Bessa RF with Heliar lens. Sorry for the poor digitalization (no scanner), but it shows how sharp the top lenses can be. The slides themselves are even more amazing.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51215

I also have an Ansco Viking with the cheap Agnar lens. It takes wonderful portraits with that vintage look, very lovely. Sorry, no samples online (having no scanner sucks).
 
I just yesterday got a Bessa I with the Vaskar but alas no 6x4.5 mask. It seems to be a really well made camera, like all the Voigtlanders of that vintage, and should be a lot of fun.

But I would definitely consider the Moskva-5 also, if you want a rangefinder. And try to get one with the 6x6 mask if you can.
 
I have an older dual format Bessa that I am restoring. That's the extent of my 6x9 experience, unless you want to count Kodak Autographics and a rollfilm back on the 2x3 Graphic.

The Voigtlander 6x6 folders are terrific. I have a very good Perkeo II, and the (Baby) Bessa 66 is a hoot to work with.
 
Way said:
Since getting my Super Isolette, the folder bug has bitten pretty hard and I'm now looking for a 6x9 folder. Any recommendations from you knowledgable folks? Good optics, reliabilty and probably a rangefinder would be nice.
Click to expand...

Go to Jurgen Kreckel's website and browse the cameras. He doesn't have every medium format folding camera ever made listed there, but he does have some good ones. http://www.certo6.com/index.html

That said, look more at the lenses than at the cameras. Franka, Balda, Agfa/Ansco, Zeiss, Voigtlander and several others all made nice cameras. Just try to get one with a nice lens. Tessars, Xenars, Xenons, Solinars, Soligons, Rodenstocks, Skopars, a few of the Ektars and so on are all good. Some of the better cooke triplet lenses are pretty good if you are using b&w film (Apotars, Cassars, Radionars and so on). I mean they are not Tessars, but it's a pretty small step up for the difference in price. Just try to avoid the low end lenses. BTW, take Jurgen's statements about lenses with a grain of salt. I agree with most of what he says, but I don't agree with all of it. Some of the triplet lenses he thinks are good are just plain not.
 
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Wow! A ton of great advice and information. And so fast! I need to run off to a rehearsal, but I did want to quickly say that all your help is much appreciated. I'll digest all this information and get back to this thread soon.
 
If you get a good one, the Moskva 5 is a great option. The lens is very good. Excellent value for money. If you decide not to get a CLA'ed one from a reputable source, get one that looks like it has been used - usually a good indication it's a good 'un! Some people find them a bit too "left handed", but you soon get to grips with that.

Another one you could consider is the Zeiss Ikonta 524/2 or Mess Ikonta. This has an uncoupled rangefinder and either a Novar or Tessar lens. You pay quite a bit more for the Tessar equiped version, but stopped down the Novar is pretty close.

If you want something a little more exotic and with a coupled RF, you could look for a Telka or Royer. The Telka comes with a shorter than usual 90mm lens.
 
Another option is the excellent Kershaw Kurlew, a British camera I think. I don't think it has a rangefinder as far as I remember, but others in the Kershaw range may have. It took some great pictures when I owned it.

Andy.
 
P C Headland said:
If you get a good one, the Moskva 5 is a great option. The lens is very good. Excellent value for money. If you decide not to get a CLA'ed one from a reputable source, get one that looks like it has been used - usually a good indication it's a good 'un! Some people find them a bit too "left handed", but you soon get to grips with that.

Another one you could consider is the Zeiss Ikonta 524/2 or Mess Ikonta. This has an uncoupled rangefinder and either a Novar or Tessar lens. You pay quite a bit more for the Tessar equiped version, but stopped down the Novar is pretty close.

If you want something a little more exotic and with a coupled RF, you could look for a Telka or Royer. The Telka comes with a shorter than usual 90mm lens.
Click to expand...

Before buying a Moskva, be sure to look through the viewfinder. If it is a little off horizontally, it is no big deal to fix, but if it is off vertically, it is nearly impossible to fix. It can be done, but it is seriously not worth it. By the time you get it done, the very sight of that camera will make you want to cry. To realign the rangefinder vertically, you take the arm apart that contains the prisms. Inside, you will find two prisms mounted inside toothed wheels. You have to rotate the wheels in relationship to one another one tooth at a time until you just happen to hit the right combination. Both wheels have a LOT of fine teeth. You have to partially reassemble the arm between each adjustment, to see if it works. Add to that that the screws are the size of pin heads and are painted black, so it is very difficult to see what you are doing. It is utterly nerve wracking. After realigning mine, I didn't want to look at it for about 4 months.
 
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kuzano said:
This is true of many mfr folders. High end Zeiss Ikons used Zeiss glass, while middle of the road used Nettar.
Click to expand...

High end Zeiss Ikons used Tessars or Color Skopars. Middle of the road models could have either one of those or a Novar. Low end models almost always used Novars. The Nettars were Zeiss's low end camera models, not lenses. All Zeiss cameras used Zeiss glass.
 
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I would add the Franka Solida III with RF and fast Schneider lens (2.9). It is not expensive and it is highly recommended by Juergen Kreckel.
 
Telka??

Telka??

P C Headland said:
If you want something a little more exotic and with a coupled RF, you could look for a Telka or Royer. The Telka comes with a shorter than usual 90mm lens.
Click to expand...

I have a Demaria Dehel Lapierre Telka III. Telka III for short. Yes it is a tad exotic but quite nice to look at.

P C Headland,
What do you know of the camera? Do you have one??

Way,
I would follow P C Headland and Fallisphoto's advice and consider the Moskva 5. As well the Moskva 4 comes in two versions and either is just fine. I think the lens on the Moskva 4 is really very good. Ebay or Jurgen, the final cost will be nearly the same.
The Super Ikonta Cs are lovely cameras but the Albada finders are a problem with most of them. But the lens is great and I've used mine for panoramics with some success.

The problem I have now, is finding different little exotics here and there on Ebay. Sites like this (I'd never heard of the Royer till Headland mentioned it. Damn!) and elsewhere on the net.

So at this count I have for 6 x 9 rangefinder folders:
Super Ikonta, Ensign, Voigtlander, Balda(?), Welta, Telka, Kershaw, Moskva and Royer.

What did I leave out??
 
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literiter said:
So at this count I have for 6 x 9 rangefinder folders:
Super Ikonta, Ensign, Voigtlander, Balda(?), Welta, Telka, Kershaw, Moskva and Royer.

What did I leave out??
Click to expand...

Agfa/Ansco, Franka and Adox/Wergin come immediately to mind.
 
literiter said:
I have a Demaria Dehel Lapierre Telka III. Telka III for short. Yes it is a tad exotic but quite nice to look at.

P C Headland,
What do you know of the camera? Do you have one??
Click to expand...

I have handled one (Telka) , and came close to buy a couple, but I haven't found the right one. Same for the Royer, although that is more a price thing - the ones I have seen were quite expensive.

Paul
 
FallisPhoto said:
Agfa/Ansco, Franka and Adox/Wergin come immediately to mind.
Click to expand...

Did Agfa/Ansco make a 6x9 rangefinder? I forgot about the Franka and Wergin.

My Telka is missing the bellows (it rotted off) and the shutter actuator. I now have a bellows but will have to manufature the actuator. I would like a picture of the actuator if anyone has a camera like this.
 
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