90mm portrait lens - what to get?

[Tonkatsu-Dog]

So I ended up getting an old 90mm F4 Elmar with screw mount - its in decent shape and I probably overpaid a little bit for it but not too bad. From looking up the serial number I found its from 1951, I am not sure what that means in terms of coatings.

I also saw a few Nikkor 85/2s, Jupiters and Cannon Serenar 85mms. They look lovely and I might get the Nikkor at some point, but its quite a bit more than the Elmar and I've put way too much money into the Leica system last 6-7 months.

I've taken it out and snapped almost 200 shots with it so far and I do like what it does. Its sharper than I expected wide open. It doesn't handle flare well at all, generally it lacks the contrast of a modern lens and colours are a bit washed out. But it has a sort of softness to it that is hard to describe, its still sharp in details but yet pleasantly softish. ( I think this is what Robert Lai described in one of the first replies)

Under right circumstances this is a great lens. Stay away from direct sun light and in properly lit places it will give very nice portraits!

I am throwing up a few snaps with it. Non-portrait so far unfortunately, all portraits I've done so far are of my wife who doesn't like to figure on internet like this! :angel: However if you look on the cat picture it has some of the pleasant softness in it.

L1002935-Edit by H0lidays1, on Flickr
Kids playing baseball in Ueno, taken trough the net.

L1002932-Edit by H0lidays1, on Flickr
There was a lot of dust in the air as very windy

L1002929-Edit by H0lidays1, on Flickr
Boy covering his face from dust blown up by the wind

L1002834-Edit-Edit by H0lidays1, on Flickr
Pleasantly soft cats! ( I prefer dogs...)

 

[Robert Lai]

Congratulations on your Elmar. Yours from the 1950s should be coated. Look at the lens with a light source at an angle. If you see a bluish or yellow reflection (mine is uncoated, so I don't know what color it's supposed to be), then it is coated.

You need a lens hood to go with virtually any lens. The old lenses used A36 push-on or clamp-on hoods, and also had threads for a 34mm lens hood / filters. I have a Japanese made 34mm hood on my uncoated Elmar from the 1930s.

Mine doesn't flare easily, and colors have moderate saturation. It used to flare / get washed out colors, until I had it cleaned and relubed by Don Goldberg. If you get your lens cleaned of haze, you'll find that it doesn't flare much, and the color saturation will improve. These old lenses tend to get hazy from the helical lube. The benefit of using only 4 lens elements in a "triplet" configuration (last 2 elements are cemented), is that there are minimal air/glass interfaces (6) and maximum light transmission. That's why the design was introduced when there were no lens coatings.

 

[Tonkatsu-Dog]

Thanks - I did see the blueish/yellow reflections - coated it means! I will try to pick up a lens hood. So far it has worked fine by being a bit careful with the sun.

Let's see if I can somewhere in Tokyo to get it cleaned. (probably not worth sending it to the US)

I shot some more with it - portraits of monkeys amongst others!

L1003047-Edit by Tobias Dantoft, on Flickr

L1003164-Edit by Tobias Dantoft, on Flickr

L1003209-Edit by Tobias Dantoft, on Flickr

L1003227-Edit by Tobias Dantoft, on Flickr

L1003065-Edit by Tobias Dantoft, on Flickr

 

[mfogiel]

I suggest looking at some portraits you like, and trying to discern the following:
- how tight you like the portrait
- how sharp you like the portrait
- how much DOF do you like in a portrait
If you like tight portraits, stick to 135mm, if you like them head and some shoulders, go with a 90mm, if you like half body portraits, go with a 50 mm, 75 mm is a good compromise between the last two, 105mm between the first two
If you like sharp ( you see what the subject had for breakfast ) go with APO lenses, if you like slightly less analytical, go with lenses made after 1970, if you like forgiving, go with old lenses.
If you like shallow DOF, go with longer, faster lenses, if you like it all sharp, go with any lens and stop down. Remember, that best bokeh depends on the lens and roundness of aperture - it is roundest wide open or when there are many blades, so think about that, e.g. if you like half body, and nice bokeh, but reasonable DOF, go with a f2.0 or 2.8 lens rather than shelling out 5k USD on a Noctilux you would end up stopping down.
My favourites would be:
50mm - Noctilux f1.0, C Sonnar, Summilux pre ASPH, Summilux and Summicron R 1st versions, Elmar M both versions
75mm - Summilux,Heliar 2.5
90mm ' Summicron M 1st version, Elmarit any version, Elmar 4.0
105 mm - Nikkor 2.5
135mm - Elmarit M 1st version, Elmar and Tele Elmar M

 

[x-ray]

I've been a huge fan of the V1 Elmarit since the 60's when I got into Leica. I've owned and shot extensively with all the 90's with the exception of the new Elmarit M. I currently use one and it's the 4th one I've owned. each time I stray away I keep owing back to it. The Tele Elmait is the one that flares badly wide open. I think people confuse it with the V1 Elmarit because of name. Often I see it referenced as just an Elmarit not the Tele. I've always used a sun shade and never experienced flare with the V1 but certainly did with the Tele Elmarit v2 that I owned.

Vintage Elmar's are tiny lenses but I've always felt they were a little too soft wide open. Stopped down they're fine. I've owned several of them and also the Wollensak 90 war era.

I've owned both the chrome and black early versions of the Summicron. While good lenses they're heavy and large and lack performance wide open. They perform well stopped down but if you're not using it wide open why own it and drag it around.

I owned the Apo Asph for about 7 years and it was amazing how sharp it was. No complaints except it lacked subtle character that makes a portrait lens what I think it should be. IMO it's harsh and lacks character but is razor sharp. If you judge a lens by sharpness alone then this is your lens. The Apo Asph for me was an ideal commercial assignment lens not a portrait / documentary lens.

After the Apo Asph I bought another V1 Elmarit and this is where I will stay.

Here are a few links. Hope my subjects aren't offensive as I do documentary photography of obscure parts of our culture.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=177557

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=64864

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=64863

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=64862

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=58947

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=25990

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=25882

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=25881

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=13254

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=13255

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=13251

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=13249

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/rffgallery/showphoto.php?photoid=13250

As you can see it's an excellent performer and renders a sharp but smooth image at all apertures. Many of the shots were made wide open. Even wide open you can clearly see every hair.

Overall my 2 favorite lenses in the medium tele range is the V1 Elmarit and 75mm Summilux.



A note about the 85mm Nikkor LTM, I do not believe it's the same formula as the slr version 85 f2 AI or AIs. I read the LTM version is a Sonnar and the back focus is too short for SLR's.

 

[x-ray]

I suggest looking at some portraits you like, and trying to discern the following:
- how tight you like the portrait
- how sharp you like the portrait
- how much DOF do you like in a portrait
If you like tight portraits, stick to 135mm, if you like them head and some shoulders, go with a 90mm, if you like half body portraits, go with a 50 mm, 75 mm is a good compromise between the last two, 105mm between the first two
If you like sharp ( you see what the subject had for breakfast ) go with APO lenses, if you like slightly less analytical, go with lenses made after 1970, if you like forgiving, go with old lenses.
If you like shallow DOF, go with longer, faster lenses, if you like it all sharp, go with any lens and stop down. Remember, that best bokeh depends on the lens and roundness of aperture - it is roundest wide open or when there are many blades, so think about that, e.g. if you like half body, and nice bokeh, but reasonable DOF, go with a f2.0 or 2.8 lens rather than shelling out 5k USD on a Noctilux you would end up stopping down.
My favourites would be:
50mm - Noctilux f1.0, C Sonnar, Summilux pre ASPH, Summilux and Summicron R 1st versions, Elmar M both versions
75mm - Summilux,Heliar 2.5
90mm ' Summicron M 1st version, Elmarit any version, Elmar 4.0
105 mm - Nikkor 2.5
135mm - Elmarit M 1st version, Elmar and Tele Elmar M

The DOF is exactly the same no matter the focal length for the same aperture and image size in the frame. For example if you have a 135mm and a 50mm and shoot head and shoulders at f5.6 with both. Composing exactly the same size and crop of image the DOF is exactly the same. This is true with a 21mm and 500mm and every other FL for that matter.

135 for me is tough to use on a leica. The frame is so small and the working distance is greater than I like to work. Also a 135 flattens the face too much IMO. A 75 or 90 are about ideal for head and shoulders to medium length shots. A 35mm and 50 are good for environmental shots where you want to show the subject in their environment.