Erl
Established
dkapp said:
Correct again Dave. One more and you will have a hat trick 😀
A continuation of observation on some photos
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Correct again Dave. One more and you will have a hat trick 😀
zeos 386sx
Well-known
In privately owned public spaces the owner of such a space can exercise censorship to the point of expulsion or even to the point of closing the space to further public use.
A person who stands in a theatre and starts babbling incoherently may be asked to leave. Censorship to the point of expulsion takes place not because of the words, which are meaningless, but because of the action .
A person who stands in a theatre, lights a match and yells fire may be censored to the point of expulsion, not because of the words, which are true, but because of the action which prompts those words.
A person who stands, peacefully, in a theatre and incites violence or treason may be censored to the point of expulsion not because of the overt action, which is peaceful, but because of the words which are meant to incite actions which are violent, treasonous, or in some other way unlawful.
Jorge, whether he wants the responsibility or not, is the one who must decide the shape and nature of this space. We must judge if we wish to use the space as it is defined by Jorge. If not, we simply do not visit.
If Jorge becomes too prohibitive he will lose guests. If Jorge becomes too lax his website will be taken over by those who would use his website for their purposes and not his.
Jorge, it’s a balancing act and you have my best wishes for success. When we think you are screwing up we will tell you - and remain patient. When you think it is time throw us all out, tell us - but remain patient. Together we might make it work.
A person who stands in a theatre and starts babbling incoherently may be asked to leave. Censorship to the point of expulsion takes place not because of the words, which are meaningless, but because of the action .
A person who stands in a theatre, lights a match and yells fire may be censored to the point of expulsion, not because of the words, which are true, but because of the action which prompts those words.
A person who stands, peacefully, in a theatre and incites violence or treason may be censored to the point of expulsion not because of the overt action, which is peaceful, but because of the words which are meant to incite actions which are violent, treasonous, or in some other way unlawful.
Jorge, whether he wants the responsibility or not, is the one who must decide the shape and nature of this space. We must judge if we wish to use the space as it is defined by Jorge. If not, we simply do not visit.
If Jorge becomes too prohibitive he will lose guests. If Jorge becomes too lax his website will be taken over by those who would use his website for their purposes and not his.
Jorge, it’s a balancing act and you have my best wishes for success. When we think you are screwing up we will tell you - and remain patient. When you think it is time throw us all out, tell us - but remain patient. Together we might make it work.
Honu-Hugger
Well-known
No worries, Solares. The discussion became more boring than it did upsetting -- I vacated the thread but never the forum. You could never get rid of me that easily 😀!!! A lot more hell was raised before I was eventually thrown out of a much worse place than this (and that was just last week in Nevada!!!). Frank will have to speak for himself 😉.SolaresLarrave said:
Toby
On the alert
I don't really like these photos and I don't agree with the political views within them but I don't think either of these two things should exclude them from the gallery. If there was a spate of anti-Bush photos you may have to consider excluding the offending members - for being boring 😉
Erl
Established
There seems to be a cyclical referral to a pic of a swastika. It seems to be central to 'the problem.'
I fail to see how. I did not see the 'offending' pic, but can;t imagine how it could offend.
Currently, I am watching a series on Australian television on the Holocaust and Auchwich. It is not pleasant. It never will be. But, It is revealing 'truths/facts' that I was unaware of before now. I feel the need to be informed. My father fought in the 2WW and whilst he did not die then, I feel he lost his life. I, and my mother and sister paid part of that price, so I always seek new information, no matter how disturbing, just so I can know my father a little more.
Censoring would inhibit this search and I would oppose it, in any form. Perhaps my ideal of 'lieing with integrity' in my images stems from this. Anyway, any photographers expression of an event, boring or entertaining can be contributive.
Lay it all before us. We will assess for ourselves. Censorship should be by the individual only for that individual.
End of speech. Been called to dinner anyway!
Peace and information to all!
I fail to see how. I did not see the 'offending' pic, but can;t imagine how it could offend.
Currently, I am watching a series on Australian television on the Holocaust and Auchwich. It is not pleasant. It never will be. But, It is revealing 'truths/facts' that I was unaware of before now. I feel the need to be informed. My father fought in the 2WW and whilst he did not die then, I feel he lost his life. I, and my mother and sister paid part of that price, so I always seek new information, no matter how disturbing, just so I can know my father a little more.
Censoring would inhibit this search and I would oppose it, in any form. Perhaps my ideal of 'lieing with integrity' in my images stems from this. Anyway, any photographers expression of an event, boring or entertaining can be contributive.
Lay it all before us. We will assess for ourselves. Censorship should be by the individual only for that individual.
End of speech. Been called to dinner anyway!
Peace and information to all!
V
varjag
Guest
Jorge, with all due respect, you overreact. This forum has been the greatest photography site I had an opportunity to hang out until this point: don't ruin it.
TPPhotog
Well-known
This and some related threads has raised issues I have had for a while, so I'll try to get my thoughts down logically.
It seems that whenever a photographer regardless of if they are professional or amateur post journalistic pictures that many people automatically assume that they are the politics and beliefs of the photographer. When I was on another site I sometimes used to state that the pictures were shot as reportage and did not necessarily represent my own views. On that site of course (you all know the one) I did used to get comments posted on the pictures and PMs attacking me for the protesters views.
In the same vein many people think that if people protest against the decisions of their own governments that they are in some or many ways not patriotic. Surely in places we are blessed with some degree of free speech that protesters are patriotic and care enough about the future of their own country to go out in all weathers and make their feelings known. Of course Dependant on our own views we can make up our own mind as to if they are misguided or not, but that does not make them unpatriotic.
There will always be some people at protests that are sheep, looking to make trouble or out for a bit of company to fill their lonely lives. The majority are there though as intelligent people that feel passionately about what they believe and are genuinely trying to make what they see as improvements which is why they are protesting.
The use of the swastika has again come up so here's my take on the subject. It's symbolism is not only a reminder of what happened but also a reminder that we should never let it happen again. Now if it's use in these pictures is appropriate to us is a matter of debate that we probably will never all agreed on. However to the protesters it's possible that they feel that it is happening again and the use of the swastika is a message which is much stronger than words that they want history not to be repeated.
There are now many people who will think I fully support the message in those photographs, however that is for you to decide if you wish. I'm not commenting as I have other forums in real life where I discus my politics and this is not one of them.
At the end of the day it is Jorge's site and we are all quests, as such the rules are his which I hope we will all respect. Running a site that attracts people from all over the world, with different cultures, beliefs and politics is not something I could do or even wish to do.
It seems that whenever a photographer regardless of if they are professional or amateur post journalistic pictures that many people automatically assume that they are the politics and beliefs of the photographer. When I was on another site I sometimes used to state that the pictures were shot as reportage and did not necessarily represent my own views. On that site of course (you all know the one) I did used to get comments posted on the pictures and PMs attacking me for the protesters views.
In the same vein many people think that if people protest against the decisions of their own governments that they are in some or many ways not patriotic. Surely in places we are blessed with some degree of free speech that protesters are patriotic and care enough about the future of their own country to go out in all weathers and make their feelings known. Of course Dependant on our own views we can make up our own mind as to if they are misguided or not, but that does not make them unpatriotic.
There will always be some people at protests that are sheep, looking to make trouble or out for a bit of company to fill their lonely lives. The majority are there though as intelligent people that feel passionately about what they believe and are genuinely trying to make what they see as improvements which is why they are protesting.
The use of the swastika has again come up so here's my take on the subject. It's symbolism is not only a reminder of what happened but also a reminder that we should never let it happen again. Now if it's use in these pictures is appropriate to us is a matter of debate that we probably will never all agreed on. However to the protesters it's possible that they feel that it is happening again and the use of the swastika is a message which is much stronger than words that they want history not to be repeated.
There are now many people who will think I fully support the message in those photographs, however that is for you to decide if you wish. I'm not commenting as I have other forums in real life where I discus my politics and this is not one of them.
At the end of the day it is Jorge's site and we are all quests, as such the rules are his which I hope we will all respect. Running a site that attracts people from all over the world, with different cultures, beliefs and politics is not something I could do or even wish to do.
Toby
On the alert
I've thought of something that I *hope* is an illuminating analogy. I run a pub. I would never exclude someone on the basis of their colur creed and political agenda. However if customer was to sour the atmosphere by starting arguments with other customers, I would ask him to leave, even if my viewpoints were similar. I don't really think the issue here is political views/censorship it's about maintaining the good atmosphere of the forum and site in general. To that end Jorge is "pub landlord" and I think he should be concerned with abusive or anti social behaviour not political views per se. I don't think these photos constitute any offence but if I overheard someone starting a political discussion in my bar I would at least keep an eye on them - and Jorge should do the same
TPPhotog
Well-known
That's a valid point Toby 😉
Btw it's not a Bass pub is it?
Btw it's not a Bass pub is it?
Toby
On the alert
TPPhotog said:
Young's I'm afraid
TPPhotog
Well-known
You have my sympathies 🙂
Sorry folks for digressing ......back to on topic 😉
Sorry folks for digressing ......back to on topic 😉
Goodyear
Happy-snap ninja
Late to this after a busy weekend away from the keyboard...
First, this is Jorge's site and he can do whatever he likes.
However, I would have to respectfully disagree with him if he continued to disallow these photos (all the ones neils posted as being deleted) from the gallery.
As some have alreqady observed, I don't see how it's possible to make an image without bias. We each always bring our own views with us in everything we do.
Whether or not I sympathise with the protesters, I found the series interesting and informative (as I found ManGo's from London).
If context is to be a deciding factor, then surely the series provides the context? If these images were meant to be read in isolation, they would be presented in isolation.
First, this is Jorge's site and he can do whatever he likes.
However, I would have to respectfully disagree with him if he continued to disallow these photos (all the ones neils posted as being deleted) from the gallery.
As some have alreqady observed, I don't see how it's possible to make an image without bias. We each always bring our own views with us in everything we do.
Whether or not I sympathise with the protesters, I found the series interesting and informative (as I found ManGo's from London).
If context is to be a deciding factor, then surely the series provides the context? If these images were meant to be read in isolation, they would be presented in isolation.
S
StuartR
Guest
Well, you said to answer honestly, so here is my take. I find it a little shocking and disappointing that there was even consideration that the photos should not be shown. Photographers of all people should be sensitive to the topic of censorship. It seems to me that these were very clearly journalistic/documentary style photographs, but even if they were explicitly political photographs, what would be wrong with that? Again, journalistic photography is about showing what is going on in the world, whether you agree with it or not. Would we be having this conversation if one of our members documented a anti-Israeli rally in Gaza, abortion protestors in front of a Planned Parenthood, a Neo-Nazi rally in Moscow or Muslim rebels in Xinjiang? These are all very touchy issues, but that is all the more reason to photograph them, learn about them and deal with them from an informed position. It's life, and if you don't agree with something it doesn't mean you should hide it away and put on your blinders.
Obviously this is Jorge's house, so if he does not want to show them, that is his call, but I think it has not been set out anywhere that political or otherwise difficult images should not be posted. I would imagine that anyone old enough to post on this forum is old enough to be confronted with opposing viewpoints and deal with them appropriately. If that is to just not look at the photos, fine, but to take something down because someone doesn't like to see their country or public leader is criticized seems misguided to me.
Obviously this is Jorge's house, so if he does not want to show them, that is his call, but I think it has not been set out anywhere that political or otherwise difficult images should not be posted. I would imagine that anyone old enough to post on this forum is old enough to be confronted with opposing viewpoints and deal with them appropriately. If that is to just not look at the photos, fine, but to take something down because someone doesn't like to see their country or public leader is criticized seems misguided to me.
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taffer
void
Well, after crossing thru a solar eclipse I get here and find all happens while Im sleeping...
Images per se never started a fire, afaik, there was always an ignition process. Of course if you remove 'problematic' photos, you can be getting rid of the wood, but as long as the lighter is still there, a potential fire may always start. I think we're all mature and civil enough to keep this place as it is, the best RF site on the net by far.
After all, that's OUR obligation and the least we can do to let Jorge know how much we appreciate the opportunity he gave us to enjoy such a superb community.
Images per se never started a fire, afaik, there was always an ignition process. Of course if you remove 'problematic' photos, you can be getting rid of the wood, but as long as the lighter is still there, a potential fire may always start. I think we're all mature and civil enough to keep this place as it is, the best RF site on the net by far.
After all, that's OUR obligation and the least we can do to let Jorge know how much we appreciate the opportunity he gave us to enjoy such a superb community.
mac_wt
Cameras are like bunnies
These are good pictures. They don't seem manipulated or photoshopped to me, so they just depict what bystanders could have seen at the moment it happened.
Everybody can add his/her own (political) story/opinion to these pics. For some they will show rightfull protest, people excercising their freedom of speech, democracy in action. For others they will show naivity/stupidity or unpatriotic attitude. The political content is in the mind of the viewer, not in the photos.
There are some beautifull landscapes in the gallery. Are they a political statement pro or contra environmentalism?
Wim
Everybody can add his/her own (political) story/opinion to these pics. For some they will show rightfull protest, people excercising their freedom of speech, democracy in action. For others they will show naivity/stupidity or unpatriotic attitude. The political content is in the mind of the viewer, not in the photos.
There are some beautifull landscapes in the gallery. Are they a political statement pro or contra environmentalism?
Wim
MacDaddy
Certified Machead
As Jim is, I'm a patriotic son of America, but that comes with the understanding that the freedom of dissent is what makes this country great! While I DO personally find some of the photos personally offensive, I support Neil's right to post them WITH THIS PROVISO..that SOME sort of commentary or "fair warning" should have accompanied them. I WOULD like to hear more from Neil about his intent—photojournalism, or personal political statement? Perhaps some clarification would douse the flames of passion we've all exhibited in the last 24 hours a bit. I personally also agree with Jorge that personal political views and commentary should be kept to a minimum on this forum. Otherwise, I'd be forced to start posting gallery shots of our soldiers and their families doing COUNTER protests to the ones Neil documented. Just my 2 cents!jlw said:
R
Roman
Guest
OK, guys that's it; just opened up a thread and found yet another act of clearly biased, one-sided censorship; some of the deleted photos (no, not of the 4 posted above, but of the 11 Neil mentioned) were among the best (and I#M thinking of best in photographic terms) in his documentation.
I'm outta here; some of you have my e-mail if they want to stay in contact, I'll go over to the gallery now and delete my pics, and then terminate my membership (if that is possible).
Roman
I'm outta here; some of you have my e-mail if they want to stay in contact, I'll go over to the gallery now and delete my pics, and then terminate my membership (if that is possible).
Roman
TPPhotog
Well-known
He owes you NO explanation what so ever as to his politics or beliefs. If he was to do that then everything he posted could and would be judged by some as political statements.MacDaddy said:
Roman don't let those that want to take over and censor everything that they don't agree with drive you out. You have many friends here with the same open mindedness as yourself.
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R
Roman
Guest
I'm sorry Tony, but this is not the first time this has happened here, and the censorship here is ALWAYS biased into one direction - there are quite a few pics in the gallery that I (and many fellow non-Americans) find just as disgusting (like all the 'stars'n'stripes' in peoples' frontyards) that have not been removed, whereas any hint of criticism against 'W' is immediately censored, that's too much for me.
I already deleted a few albums in my gallery, I still have some up because I don't have any copies of those scans on my current computer, and want to transfer them over to my Flickr site, which I will do this evening (I'm already late for work, I will have to run in a minute).
You may catch me over at photo.net in the Classic Camera, Leica and Darkroom forums, and I'll have to check out what Flickr has to offer forum-wise, but I#M outta here once I've transferred my pics.
Roman
I already deleted a few albums in my gallery, I still have some up because I don't have any copies of those scans on my current computer, and want to transfer them over to my Flickr site, which I will do this evening (I'm already late for work, I will have to run in a minute).
You may catch me over at photo.net in the Classic Camera, Leica and Darkroom forums, and I'll have to check out what Flickr has to offer forum-wise, but I#M outta here once I've transferred my pics.
Roman
TPPhotog
Well-known
Roman I see where you are coming from and why. There's no way I want to miss your views or pictures so I'll see you over on the Flickr (already bookmarked). Your going to be very missed here by many people. Have a good shift, I'm on a late myself soon!
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