A Few Developing Questions from a Beginner

[venchka]

Rodinal is fancy, cool and very podcastish. But Kodak HC-110 just gets job done clean and easy. I develop ALL film in B dilution. It is boring and very consistent procedure.

I have two unopened bottles of HC-110. You make a good argument for using it. If it worked for Mr. Adams, who are we to argue?
Thanks.
Wayne


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[Ko.Fe.]

I have two unopened bottles of HC-110. You make a good argument for using it. If it worked for Mr. Adams, who are we to argue?
Thanks.
Wayne


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Wow! I din't know what Mr. Adams is into it!

 

[venchka]

LOL! Wrong.
Ansel Adams. An early adopter. About the same time that he hung up his 8x10 cameras and switched to Hasselblad.
He jump started himself into the 20th century.
I frankly don't see much difference in the workings of Rodinal and HC-110.
If you want to push the envelope, investigate Sandy King's Pyrocat HD as a two bath developer. Old idea. New chemistry.
Have fun.
Wayne


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[jim_jm]

Not my experience, I never found any difference between dishwashing liquids (3 drops in 250 cc of water) and Ilford's wetting agent. I must say that I don't print negatives so maybe there a difference can be found...

Regards

Joao

Well, as an example, Dawn dishwashing liquid includes the following in addition to water and other ingredients: methylisothiazolinone, sd alcohol, sodium chloride, sodium laureth sulfate and magnesium chloride. I don't know what some of these are, but I'll bet they're going to leave some type of residue on your film, even if it's not visible. Most dishwashing soaps contain a fair amount of detergent, needed to break down grease.

Photo-Flo contains about 65% water, 30% propylene glycol and 5% polyethoxyethyl alcohol. It's also a fair bet that some of the ingredients in dish soap will damage your film over time, although I have no experience with this.

 

[Tom R]

Listening to "Art of Photography" podcast with Ted Forbes, he's raving about Stand Development, minimalist darkroom, Rodinal... and a whole slew of things. With his experience, I suppose he's comfortable and what seems easy to him... I'm not as comfortable will seem easy to a beginner (like me). Curious what's the EASIEST, most FOOL PROOF ('cause I'm the dang fool who can bust the fool proof wide open) way of chemistry to follow... from film to development? OP didn't ask this per se, but perhaps he's wondering as much as I am?

I see that this thread has taken an "historic" turn. Something that you might want to be careful about doing, esp. when reading Ansel Adams, Gilpin, Gene Smith's notes, or other discussions of developer formulations, procedures, etc., is that many of the materials have changed or are no long available. Sure, we can read about Beers Developers and Agfa papers, but those papers haven't existed for decades. So-called modern materials might not respond as one would hope to Pyro, Glycin, Amidol, and a host of other developing agents that I used many years ago.

Hell, something as simple as using Potassium Bromide in place of Sodium Bromide as restrainers in classic paper developers had subtle effects on the "tone" of the print. Ditto for using Benzotriazole in place of any of the Bromides ... blah, blah, blah ... You get the idea.

If you're interested in experimenting, great. But I wouldn't use any critical (i.e., got-to-have-done) materials here.

This being said, it makes me happy that at least another generation is aware that these materials exist and are capable of creating meaningful images.

TR

 

[ChrisPlatt]

Will Dove dishwashing liquid make my images softer? 😛

I use Edwal LFN. All you need is a drop or two. The little bottle lasts forever.

Chris

 

[roscoetuff]

DrMcCoy / KoFe and others: Yes, I'd like to minimize time in the hut. I'm assuming that there's not a problem using Kodak on Ilford film and vice versa... but I'm asking so that I hear some experience. Never having done this, I'm not going for a "look", just trying to learn how to get clean negatives. We're in "read up" or "Youtube" mode, and checking my Ansel Adams "The Negative".

But I wonder: What's the % of folks who're effectively self-taught? Is it easy enough for that? I've been looking but not seeing any classes.

 

[Frontman]

Please DO NOT use dishwashing liquid as a wetting agent! Most commercial brands contain perfumes and other chemicals which will leave residue on your film. Proper wetting agent like Photo-flo is very cheap, and one bottle of concentrate will last for years. I've been processing and printing my own film for over 40 years, and this is a step where you do not want to skimp. Mix your wetting agent (a few drops only) in distilled water, not tap water or "purified drinking" water, and submerge the film for about 30 secs before hanging to dry. No need to squeegee or wipe the film at all. Hang the film in a draft-free area like the shower and don't disturb it for a few hours. You want to kick up as little dust as possible until the emulsion is sufficiently dry.

A proper wetting agent is best, if I have to use dish soap, I use Sunlight, as it always dries without marks. Don't use Dawn, it is too strong, and for whatever reason, it attracts mold.

A chemical stop is not necessary, having used stop bath and plain water, there is no difference I can see, having developed countless rolls and sheets of film. Using water will simplify the process, and make for one less step to deal with.

 

[jim_jm]

It's easy. The key is to be consistent with your times/temps/agitation and follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Download data sheets for your film and chemicals from the manufacturers (Kodak, Ilford, etc.) and you will have all the specific processing information you need. "The Negative" is a good resource, as is "The Craft of Photography" by David Vestal and "Black and White Photography" by Henry Horenstein.

I taught myself when I was 14, using books from the library as there was no internet in those days. There is a lot of disinformation and useless chatter these days that can seem confusing to the beginner. Film processing is actually sort of the boring part for me now, as printing in the darkroom is the most creative aspect of photography.

 

[roscoetuff]

Part of the reason I'm using Ilford films... they're still around for the moment. For the moment, Kodak is Konfusing.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

DrMcCoy / KoFe and others: Yes, I'd like to minimize time in the hut. I'm assuming that there's not a problem using Kodak on Ilford film and vice versa... but I'm asking so that I hear some experience. Never having done this, I'm not going for a "look", just trying to learn how to get clean negatives. We're in "read up" or "Youtube" mode, and checking my Ansel Adams "The Negative".

But I wonder: What's the % of folks who're effectively self-taught? Is it easy enough for that? I've been looking but not seeing any classes.

Quick and Easy, right? Quit reading of A. Adams, first. 🙂

Patterson plastic ones. Easy to load and easy, quick to operate. 42 frames, no problem.
All you need to know about Paterson plastic reels is what it has one half moving. You are pushing film in and rotating moving half of the reel's wheel to the same direction. Then you are not pushing film, but holding it and rotating half of the reel back. Once it is back, again pushing film in and rotating half of the reel same direction. Repeat until film is in the reel.

I mix HC-110 directly from its original bottle. 10 ml for one reel, 20 for two, to be used in Paterson or like tank. It is called hcB - HC-110 dilution B.
I measure it with cap which comes with at the counter cough syrup. It goes into this plastic lab cylinder which has marks for 50ml. I put around 250 ml of water first and let HC-110 in and swirl it to dissolve. I'm pouring water in to the cap to get rest of HC-110 dissolved and into the mixing lab cylinder. By the time HC-110 is completely dissolved in the mixing cap, I'm reaching the working mix amount. 325 ml for one reel, 660 for two. Many plastic tanks has it written on the bottom of the tank.
Developer goes into the tank. I'm holding it and rotating down and up for 30 sec. Then four slow rotations every 30 seconds.
I'm using nothing but this and only chart for ALL films in HC-110:
http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.php?Film=&Developer=HC-110&mdc=Search&TempUnits=C
I never adjust water temperature, I do alter developing time. If water is colder than 20C I add time, if hotter I develop less. I'm not anal on 20 ml water difference and 30 seconds difference. Most of regular modern BW films in 100 and 400 ISO are very forgiving.
hcB gives you five, eight minutes to develop. Ten seconds for Stop bath. If you will use Rapid Fixer at 1:4 fixing is going to be very quick. Use undeveloped film stripe to time how long it taxes to clean emulsion. Multiply by 2.5 or 3 - it is your fixing time. (I prefer Kodak fixer in powder, mix one gallon it is good for at least six months).
Five minutes washing, one minute in PhotoFlo. Take film out from the reel, run trough two fingers to take of the moisture. Film goes on the clothes hanger which is attached to the light fixture in bathroom another end of the film gets clipped by broken out part of another clothes hunger. 30-40 minutes later it is dry.
This is it.
If you want it easy, skip Kodak films. They have crappy pink backing which takes longer to fix. Kodak films has arch once they are dry. I recommend Kentmere 100-400 and Ilford FP4+ and HP5+ films. Normal fixing times and much more flat.

Same bathroom as darkroom:


Darkroom. by Kostya Fedot, on Flickr


Prints. by Kostya Fedot, on Flickr

 

[roscoetuff]

KoFe: Thanks! Very kind of you to document your process to this extent. And... if you're happy with the output, that says something for the consistent logic in your approach. Literally sounds as though you've cooked it down to a simple way of making adjustments that make sense.

Thanks also for the recommendation on reels and tanks. I've seen folks pushing for the Hewes steel reels as "the most reliable" in rolling the film on, but I've also seen the ratcheting way the Patterson reels seem to wind it on... and it looks pretty simple. I suppose both are fine, but there are all sorts of personal preferences that come into these things that it's tough to sort out I guess until you just go ahead and do it. Looks to me that the savings in time and cost is worth it.

So thanks again!

 

[narsuitus]

Here is what I use for developing 35mm and 120 black&white negative roll film and color positive roll film.

The small tank holds two 35mm rolls or one 120 roll.
The medium tank can hold four 35mm rolls or two 120 rolls.
The large tank can hold eleven 35mm rolls or six 120 rolls.

I use a water bath in a Coleman ice chest to control the chemical temperature.

I usually use water instead of a chemical stop bath.

I do have a changing bag but only use it when I am on the road with my portable darkroom.

To avoid problems with scratches, water spots, and dust, I ...
1. Kept the film wet time as short as possible
2. Used distilled water as the last rinse
3. Did not touch the wet emulsion with anything
4. Shake excess water off the film (I have yet to try the salad spinner technique)
5. Air dried the film in a dust-free cabinet with a light bulb heater and no fan.


35mm and 120 Developing by Narsuitus, on Flickr

 

[venchka]

Chem stop is necessary if you're using shorter developing times (I think under 7 min is the recommendation, maybe wrong about that). The film keeps developing until it's been fully stopped and a chem stop is way shorter than a water stop. Also, as I understand it, using a chem stop allows fixer to work better.

I avoid time below 10 minutes whenever possible.
If I use the same technique consistently, any "slow" water only stop effect is built into my total development routine.
I got a bottle of Kodak Stop Bath in a box of free chemicals. Just for grins I have been using it mixed at One Half of Kodak's dilution. It seems to do no harm.
I also use Kodak Photo-Flo at 1/2 of Kodak's instructions.
Film is a lot tougher than folks realize.
Wayne


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[Ko.Fe.]

So thanks again!

At your service! Do not hesitate to check my Flickr link in the signature to find out if my approach is success or miserable failure.
My most used developing plastic tank and two plastic reels were given to me for free. Since 2012 I put hundreds rolls in it to develop BW, C-41 and ECN-2 films. It is still intact even after I dropped different parts of it on tile floor in the crowded bathroom/darkroom.

I'm totally agree on steel/plastic preferences. Steel tank and reel are perfect match for steel sink. Looks nice.

 

[venchka]

Ps,
Studying history is never a bad thing. Ansel Adams is still relevant. So are the people he learned from.
Good luck!
Wayne


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[David Hughes]

Hi,

Years ago, reading these threads I asked why even wetting agents were never mentioned and was told that the modern developers etc contained it but now I'm starting to worry.

BTW, I'd use glass containers and measuring equipment. I went on a course years ago and there was a young lady chemist on the course from a water utility and she did a very good rant about drinking water in plastic bottles because of the plasticisers leaching out and into us; just thought I'd mention it.

BTW 2, you'll need a special cleaning brush for the small measuring cylinders.

Anyway, have fun and don't forget to read the instructions and take what you see on the internet (including this) with a pinch of salt.

Regards, David

 

[roscoetuff]

So I got my first films from the Leica M4-2 back from the lab complete with scans and prints. THIS sort of approach costs a fortune. Cut the scans and prints, and it's still $11 for B&W, $10 for C41, and it takes eons. So looks like I'll at least be scanning my own negatives (they're charging $0.45 per scan for JPG at not impressive res and the process of scanning using a DSLR just seems to promise much more). But I'll probably give the developing thing a shot, too. Been going through the equipment and chems and sorting out where... stay tuned as they say.

 

[venchka]

If you can count to 5, you can develop film.
1. Developer
2. Stop
3. Fix
4. Wash
5. Dry
Don't over think it.
Wayne


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[roscoetuff]

Wayne: Yes, I just have to put together a shopping list. Trying to find a local supplier who'll have most of EVERYTHING to get started. That's the trick. There's only two that even carry Darkroom stuff in the Washington DC area from what I can tell. Given the chemical shipping restrictions... it seems the deal these days.