A film vs Digtal disscusion where your opinion doesn't matter...

Creagerj

Incidental Artist
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...unless you are a customer or client. Put aside you're own personal opinions of film and digital photography and try to develop an opinion of the subject from the uneducated client's prospective. If you were customer what would you want? Film or digital, and why? Remember to pretend you basically know nothing about cameras beside the fact that when you push a button a picture is magically captured.

I raise this question because of an experiance I have just recently had. One of my hobbies and passions is photographing bands. I'm a musician and I enjoy doing it. It also means that I get to see a free show. I do it for free or basically free, I've never once been paid real money (for any picture), although some day someone might actually reimburse me for the film. I think my work is good, and I'm a decent photographer, although I'm no where near the level of some of the photographers her that I hope to some day be considered par with. Still I deliver a pretty good product considering I don't get paid a cent. I take lots of pictures and I touch them up in photoshop and give whoever a cd with the pictures I thought were worth while.

Recently I contacted a band that was looking for a photographer for an upcoming show. They wanted someone with a digital SLR but that usually never shies me away because in the end they still get something in digital format. Actually they wanted someone with a digital SLR and big flash to take pics of them and drunk people. They were offering $25 for the gig, which in the end works out to about $2.50 for me in profit. I would have done it for free to be honest. I told them that I could give them pictures that I take on my film camera in a digital format. I also gave them my spiel on why I like film more than digital. I also told them about how I do take my time in editing my pictures to make sure that they are the best they can be. I also tried to explain to them that they might like the pictures I take more if I just work in low light and not use a flash. Anyway, the only reply is "I'm sorry, I need digital".

I don't get it. I could understand if they weren't confident in the fact that I'm only 20 years old or that I've only been taking pictures for about four years. Personally I would be surprised if they were expecting a pro for $25, and I'm just about top not ct for that price range. But no, they just want a guy to take digital pictures with (probably) his lower end consumer SLR and (probably) off brand zoom lens so that they can have instant gratification. I'm not claiming to be gods gift to photography because I am certainly not, but I do think I could have delivered better results than they will probably end up getting.

Has film lost so much value in the client's eye that they would rather have the newest thing in untrained hands rather than a guy who is willing to forgo being paid for the money he puts into the film he shoots and the time he spends editing his work?

Half of me hopes thats they will get someone who doesn't really know what they are doing to take very washed out pictures with their big flash and consumer SLR with their cheap zoom lens (probably quantaray, ok I have one of those and it doesn't suck that much). On the other hand I would hate for that to happen to them, but it could turn them onto the path of righteousness.

Sorry this is so long I had to rant a tad.
 
Y'know what? Shoot some pics and give them a link to your website. Then charge them 50$ for the pics one they show some interest.
 
it's probably because most people these days really have no clue about the quality that can be optained w/ film, and how valid it still is.

yesterday, i was reloading my FE2 and i heard "oh WOW, you even have a real camera" (in addition to my 1DmkII)... this was a serious comment, from a serious person.
 
You weren't clear on whether you have (or could borrow) a dSLR+flash as well as your "real camera". As I have both, I probably would have taken the opportunity to shoot - then taken film/RF shots in amongst the digital shots. I'd then have been able to show them the difference between on-the-spot flash/jpg output and properly scanned and processed film output. As an exercise in both educating them on what's possible with film and seeing if the results were to their taste. If so, additional opportunities might follow...

...Mike
 
Thats actually a very good idea.

By the way Ned, I had a look at your work and I really enjoyed it. Very impressive. I especially liked the last picture in the Tzigans series.
 
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dmr is pretty much right joe.

Even digital takes a little time to produce a product you feel like stamping your name on. I know a wedding photog here that said most of her charge wasn't for taking the pictures but for the hours in front of her computer making the pictures look "good".

Still...25 bucks is 25 bucks.

Regardless, I've shot for a good few bands here in NC & even after sending CDs or emails- with what I thought were a couple/few good shots- have gotten barely more than a "thank you", much less anything more. Sometimes I don't even get a "thank you".

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter a whole lot (other than the bruised ego) because I had fun shooting & I probably got a good buzz. The music is usually another plus.

You are in the hotbed that produced Mudhoney, Nirvana, etc.....don't settle for cover bands that want shots with the crowd.

On a more personal note, you avatar shows you(?) wearing a Spitfire shirt. Do you skate? Street or transition? You do know you are in the promised land of transition don't you? Surely....
 
This story has more to do with marketing decisions.. Some people are dead set on the "digital" keyword. Others only care about the images you produce. You should have just showed them your portfolio instead of going into the superiority of film.

If you don't have a portfolio yet, build it up by hooking up with clients who don't care that you use film.

I did find it ironic that you ranted about digital shooters getting poor results because of their "consumer grade" DSLR and cheap off brand lenses. I thought we were on the same boat that one shouldn't discriminate based on equipment... ?
 
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Good observation, I do skate. In fact skateboarding is what got me into photography because beside my ability to ride a skateboard, I can hardly do any tricks. Half out of fear and half out of the fact that I just don't spend enough time practicing. Anyway, since I could ride just as well as anyone but I couldn't do tricks, I became the camera man.

I have worked with other bands in the past, but the idea of working with these guys was to help build my portfolio. Honestly I'm to broken up about it because this was something that I was going to do while I was on back home from school for a week. I'm probably not going to bend over backwards trying to win this band because I'm in college and I know that there will be plenty more opportunities to work with other bands in my tenure here. They probably won't care if I use film.

Mostly I was just surprised that the bands sole reason for not wanting me to photograph there show is because I don't shoot digital.

To me it just seems strange that they would choose that as their reason. Then again that seems to be a growing trend.
 
What I'd do is telling them that you'll do it for free anyway, but let them use another person with a DLSR to take pics too. Then you show the band your pics and let them compare yours to the pics by the other person. And if they like yours better, well, get paid the amount they were going to give you.
 
I think a lot of people still see the gear, not the photographer, as the one taking the photographs. So they think the newest, "superior" gear will give the best results.
 
I'd buy a ticket, then shoot as a member of the audience....you'll surely get the same shot, but maybe when you send 'em the CD, they'll at least have stones enough to cover the price of the ticket!

Regards!
Don
 
well, almost everybody seems to be quite sure here that you could do it better than "someone with a dslr", low end or not low end.
Well, could you? How comes?

You gotta realize, those people probably don't know anything about photography. They just like most people nowadays know what's the latest stuff on the market because that's what we see everywhere we look in the commercials. So that's what they want. Why should they know better, they are not photographers, they have other things to worry about.
When you talk to them about how much better film a nd no-flash would be better, i bet they don't even listen.
 
Your question is a good one. Why do people demand digital now? I can think of only one reason, and that is immediate feedback. It amazes me that so many pros have gone to digital, rather, have had to due to client demant. Digital does give immediate feedback, but doesn't give the quality of film yet. All I have heard is that at its best, it is more like slide film, and why would anybody use that? Mind you, I used to expose a lot of slide film and liked it, but it is trickier to use than negative fim unless you have good control of lighting.

Well, I still can't answer your question. Just a sign of the times I guess. And that people are more familiar with digital, since pretty much everybody has gone to digital P&S cameras over film. Even I enjoy my digital P&S. But I'm not giving up on film, to include in P&S cameras.
 
Creagerj said:
They were offering $25 for the gig
People will pay $4 for coffee, $50 for a battery, and $150 to see some multimillionaire clowns play against other multimillionaire clowns, yet they think photographs come out from fortune cookies.

I would have accepted, and taken only one shot. I'm sure they wouldn't play one song for $25 at an event.
 
You actually did not state the reason why they said that they wanted digital, and that's perhaps the source of the communication breakdown. Is it because they need to send pictures to their website minutes after the show is over? Is it because they want to see your shots between the sets?

Instead of discussing gear with your clients, you should just ask them: how many pictures, what kind of shots, and when. Then you agree on a price, and you deliver. If you want the gig and the constraints are such that you need to borrow a DSLR, then just use the DSLR. If the constraints are different and film makes as much, if not more sense, then go with film. People hire you (although cheaply: 25$ for taking pictures of a show is not a lot), so you should be professional.

Nobody cares or should care about whether you used collodion or digital to take the shot. They should appreciate your talent and the look of your pictures. Pontificating about film will not help, because they probably just think "digital=quick access to pictures" and are not aware that you can scan film and deliver the shots in about the same time it takes to do a proper PS job. If you argue about using film with people who have that mindset, the they'll just think you're not willing to work for them.
 
ten or so years ago i opened a portrait studio in melbourne. i was shooting film on the F2A and then for the sake of keeping up with the times i bought my first digital, a Kodak 315, which as i recall had about 3 MPs? not sure, it is long gone to the doorstop box. when i offered the choice of either format people would choose film. fair enough. now, recently i actually asked the qyestion, film or digital and people looked askew at me and said, digital, of course! it seemed that using film made me "old fashioned" and they thought they would get grandma and grandma-type shots. so i shot with both cameras and after working the results for the client in CS3 they were happy with the choice as well as the different results. ironically when i did the the unmarked paper cover over the two lots of photos their choice yielded the FILM prints. so, for me, using both at different or even the same times (when practical) covers all bets.

dj
 
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