Leica LTM a iiic for christmas. hello and some questions

[bukaj]

(this post will be a little long winded, but I have some questions on the camera and accessories below) I just inherited a iiic this christmas. Even though I shot a little bit of film with a T70 when I was in high school I really started learning photography in the digital age. After shooting with a DSLR for the past few years I recently have really wanted to shoot film. I kept thinking about that leica rangefinder sitting in the closet at my mom's house so I planned on taking it when I came home for the holidays. I also think shooting a fully manual film camera will greatly improve my skills, mostly the intuitive nature of photography. Even though I've learned a lot with my DSLR, it's a very trial and error approach to photography.

The camera is a 368xxx iiic from 1940-41. Browsing through the forums here it's not nearly as clean as some of your models (dented, chrome coming off, etc) but my great grandfather trade for it from a german soldier in poland during ww2, so it's got quite a bit of sentimental value.

Now for some questions:

I know it needs the CLA. This camera probably hasn't been used for 10-20 years. The slow speeds don't work and have the functionality of a bulb setting. 'T' works like it's supposed to, and the fast speeds sound and look ok. The curtains (red) look in pretty good shape. Other than the slow speeds the camera seems to be in good functional order. I want to shoot at least a roll or two before sending it out (first roll is in the camera) to test focus, shutter speeds, light leaks, etc.

Could it hurt the camera if I decide to hold off on the CLA for a while considering the slow speeds don't work?

The camera also has a pc port just below the hot shoe in the back. I understand flash sync wasn't added until later models. Did any iiic's have a flash sync? Or was it likely that this was a factory upgrade later?

I was also lucky enough to get a few lenses and other accessories with the camera. I have a Summitar 5cm f2, Elmar 3.5cm f3.5, and Jupiter 13.5cm f4. When I pull out the Summitar and lock it, there is some play. Adjusting the aperture has a tendency to unlock it (it's really tight). Will a cleaning fix this? Also, the markings on the aperture are slightly off. It goes slightly past f2 and not quite to f12.5. I'm assuming the markings are off rather than the aperture being off. Am I correct? The 3.5cm has a similar issue.

Also with the camera was a Leica 3.5 to 13.5 viewfinder, a hood for a Summitar, a 5cm Elmar hood (fits on the 3.5, wonder how much vignetting it'll cause), some color filters, and what looks either an extender or macro extension tube (more on that later), and a few color filters for a summitar.

The viewfinder has two marks for the focal length. A long one and a short one to the left of it. What's the difference between the two? Also, are all external viewfinders reversed left to right like this one? You can also rotate the eye piece. Oddly enough, it has a range of 90 degrees, but rotating it 90 degrees, rotates the viewfinder window 180 degrees (upside down). What's the purpose of this?

And now for the extension something or other (see attached image). The summitar will attach to the end. Printed on the front ring is Summitar, Summar u. Hektor 5cm. On the side are markings (M1:6,5 1:7, 1:8 ... all the way to 1:17,5). There is no glass in the unit itself.

Last question: Will I have any issues with commercial printing having trimmed the film lead? I'm assuming no.

Thanks for reading my long winded post. Can't wait to put this relic back to use.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I have sent several Leica's to Youxin Ye for a CLA. He does this as a sideline, specializes in Leica, and is very reasonable.

The Camera and Lenses are "wartime issue", and are well worth having restored. The trimmed leader does not cause problems for developers.

The device shown is a close-up device, not very practical compared to an SLR- but can be used.

http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50267&highlight=youxin+contact+information

 

[Pickett Wilson]

Nice kit. Just get the CLA, don't try to force things that are hard to turn, etc. Only make things worse! Youxin is the man.

 

[FrankS]

Doesn't the red curtain indicate that it is a highly collectible war time model?

 

[johannielscom]

Hi there!

Welcome to the forum! to get collectors juices running: does your camera have one red and one black curtain, or both red curtains? If both red and in good, non-spotted condition, you will have a collectable camera for sure.

The red curtains were used at Leitz for only a short time, to experiment with before the war. As the war progressed and a shortage in rubberized cloth manifested itself, Leitz decided to use the left-over red cloth.
In the 1950's, cameras with red shutters that were sent to Leitz for service, by default had their shutter replaced. As a result, not many camera's still have both red curtains.

Your camera was a fairly new model at the time, and not easily obtainable for civilians. The Germans had fighting reporters in their ranks, the 'Kriegsberichters'. They sent out their films to the Ministry of Propaganda, run by Joseph Goebbels. They selected photos that were used in newspapers, posters, even post cards. Your grandfather may have traded that camera with a Kriegsberichter.

Great kit you got there, hope you will shoot it a lot and show results!

 

[bukaj]

Thanks for all the responses. Especially on the bit of history.

It has one red curtain (the first) and one black (the second). I'll try to get more info on the history of the camera.

From browsing a bit on here, I read about Youxin and planned on sending it to him after getting the first roll developed.

 

[LeicaTom]

Sounds like what you have is an early Leica IIIC, very popular with German officers shooting in the early war years, back then also expensive and hard for both sides to obtain and after 1945, one of the top notch booty/barter trade items of the US Occupation Forces. 1945/49

Like others have stated, get it CLA'd, I suggest Youxin Ye who's outside of Boston, Mass. his works is great and good turn-around ~ he has repaired some of my most valuable WW2 Leicas. (most important is that the red and black shutter curtain stays intact, with a repair/CLA and constant use the WW2 era curtains will stay in very good shape, just never shoot into direct sunlight, or leave a lens cap off the camera, while you don't want to burn holes into the curtains......)

Write me the serial number and I can get you the original issue dates etc.

I would get the camera working 100% up to snuff and shoot with it, I use a 1945 Leica IIIC almost everyday and it's no hassle once you get the hang of it.

Happy Holidays and Happy Shooting with your new gift

Tom

 

[Roger Hicks]

First, welcome and congratulations.

The near focusing device accepts the Summitar and, when mounted on the camera, allows near focus from repro ratios about 1:17.5 to about 1:6.5, about 1m - 50cm.

The auxiliary finder turns through 180 degrees when you turn the camera through 90 degrees ('landscape' to 'portrait') and the eyepiece corrector returns it to usability. The long and short lines are to compensate for the small differences between the fields of view at infinity and close up (from memory, 1m).

It is quite common for old lenses to have sticky diaphragms and this is easily cured with cleaning. The 'beyond f/2' will be a negligible or non-existent increase in aperture and 'beyond f/12,5' has existed on every lens of this type I've owned, resulting in 1/3-1/2 stop under the marked minimum.

It will do no detectable harm to put some film through it before having it serviced, as long as you don't have to force anything: sticky slow speeds are normal on old Leicas that have stood for a while, and sometimes recover with exercise (starting at the highest speed). In fact, an inferior 'CLA' may do more harm than just using it. Check prospective repairers carefully. To quote myself, if there are significant numbers of complaints about someone, especially if they are specific and repeated ('the camera came back soaked in oil'), you may do well to look elsewhere. (from http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/leicaphilia.html)

Cheers,

R.

 

[bukaj]

Does a CLA include adjusting the rangefinder for focus accuracy? Also is the lever near the rewind knob simply a diopter adjustment? Does it effect focus at all? I'm thinking no.

 

[FrankS]

Does a CLA include adjusting the rangefinder for focus accuracy? Also is the lever near the rewind knob simply a diopter adjustment? Does it effect focus at all? I'm thinking no.

Yes , yes, and no .

 

[splitimageview]

How clear is the viewfinder? Can you see the RF patch clearly?

Nice wartime red curtain IIIc, I have one very similar from 1940.

Oh, and yes, Youxin is the man. I have sent umpteen cameras to him...very quick, top notch service, quick email replies.

 

[bukaj]

what do you mean by patch? I don't think I see it. It's fairly clear. Not difficult to focus. I'm getting it cleaned will help.

 

[splitimageview]

Do you see a double image thru the leftmost viewfinder window? The image should move as the lens is focused.

 

[bukaj]

oh yeah, the rangefinder works fine. just need to see if it's accurate.

 

[David Hughes]

About the view-finder; in those days the Leica one reversed things and could be a pita to use. Later ones didn't and, if you are going to take it seriously and have deep pockets, it might be worth looking for one or buying the much cheaper and better USSR made version of the Contax one. The genuine article gives you authenticity but the cheaper USSR one is more practical. Also there are modern ones (Albada type) available from Japan but not everyone can get on with them.

The close up device can be used with the Summitar and is parallax corrected but I'll warn you that mastering it can take a while. Exposure is difficult and without a lot of light the 50mm Summitar has very shallow DoF.

BTW, everyone looking at this thread is drooling. We are all hoping you get everything cleaned and carefully restored to working order.

The Jupiter lens with the outfit ought to work, if you are lucky, and at f/2 is a pleasant portraiture lens. It will probably be a little stiff and, if so, should be checked etc professionally. This is not a popular opinion, btw.

You'll need to get an exposure meter to use with the camera. A suitable one and very easy to find and use would be a Weston Master or Master II. Either will be calibrated for the Leica's shutter speeds and apertures, which are "odd" by today's standards.

As you haven't mentioned instruction books I'll add that they are easily obtained as a PDF file. Try here for one:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/leica/leica_iiic/leica_iiic.htm

Oooops, I forgot to say "welcome aboard".

Regards, David

 

[NLewis]

Yes, get the CLA, for both body and lenses. Not only will it function properly, including rangefinder calibration, but everything will be silky smooth and fun to use, like it just came from the factory, and it will probably look better to. I sent a Leica III and lens to Gus Lazzari, he did a spectacular job and not too expensive.

You don't need a light meter most of the time. Learn how to judge exposure from dead reckoning, the "sunny F16 rule". LV15 is bright sun, LV12 is outdoor shade or overcast, LV5 is well-lit indoors at night, etc. Print film has a lot of exposure latitude, so you can be off by a stop and it's fine. People have used "box cameras" for a hundred years, including today's disposable film point-and-shoot cameras. They have one fixed exposure, just one aperture and shutter speed, but they deliver ... at least some kind of result. Transparency film is another story -- if you want to shoot Velvia, get a Nikon N65 with matrix metering. If you want to carry a meter for tricky situations (indoors with window light for example), I'd suggest the tiny Gossen Digisix. Another option is a digital point-and-shoot like the Canon S90. It's not much bigger than a compact meter, and you can use it as a camera too. Usually, you set exposure for the light source, and just leave it. You don't have to change it for every shot.

Personally, I'd shoot just the 50mm Summitar lens. You don't need extra lenses, outboard viewfinders, and all the other nonsense. That's why the multiple frameline viewfinder was invented, and then replaced by the SLR. The Elmar 35/3.5 is a honey, but you would need another viewfinder, and I'd suggest a more modern one which is big and bright.

 

[Melvin]

Don't trust that strap, it might be like paper by now.

 

[colyn]

As others have stated this camera is well worth having restored.

The flash sync unless factory converted is in all probability not worth using. Hacks would install using the brake to fire it at the right (??) time.

If the camera has a dial with numbers under the top shutter speed dial it is factory converted otherwise don't trust the sync..

 

[bukaj]

I've been using a printed chart from Fred Parker (http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm). Still use my dslr to help with metering, but plan on getting an older cheap meter to use until I get good at eyeing EVs. I don't have a problem with the odd Leica apertures cause they are just a third stop off from normal values. Easy enough to adjust. I've also been writing down all my apertures and shutter speeds so I can compare when I get the pictures developed.

The strangest thing about the external viewfinder is that if you turn it 90 degrees, the image rotates 180. I have no idea why this is because it makes it impossible to frame the shot if you're not holding the camera at 90 degree intervals. Also I have no idea how this happens.

Goal is to get the first two rolls developed tomorrow. Here's a rather flattering shot I took with my dslr and some external flashes. Amazing what some soft light can do to hide imperfections.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/acaprez/5308484353/

 

[John Shriver]

You rotate the prism in the VIDOM finder 90 degrees for vertical shots, so that they will "only" be flipped left for right. Of course, there's only end you can have up for a vertical.

Leica later worked out a more complicated (but bulky) prism arrangement for the Imarect (telegraphic ordering code name VIOOH) such that the image isn't flipped left-for-right, and you don't need any adjustment for vertical shots.