Bill Pierce
Well-known
I never thought the rangefinder and rangefinder focusing was the critical or most useful feature in rangefinder cameras. It was the bright line finder, the ability to see outside of the camera image’s frame lines that made it uniquely useful in a variety of situations. Certainly one of them is news photography where seeing what is happening outside the frame while shooting a situation you have no control over can be exceptionally useful. (No wonder the wire frame “sports” finder on the Speed Graphic was almost the only finder used by news photographers in the days of sheet film.) But it can also be a useful feature when photographing every uncontrollable situation from the street shooting to pictures of puppies.
But cameras with bright line finders have been even less popular in the digital age than they were in the last years of film’s dominance. Currently, you have the digital Leica M series, but the bodies and lenses are far beyond the budget of many photographers, especially if they shoot with multiple bodies. You have the more reasonably priced APS-c Fuji XPro-3 with useful frame lines for the 35, 40, 50 and 75mm equivalent lenses and the Fuji 100V with its fixed 35mm equivalent. There is also one other alternative I know of, the Leica Q or Q2. While they are electronic finder cameras, the frame line can be set to show the framing of longer focal lengths than the 28mm fixed lens on the camera (35, 50 and 75 of the Q2), showing you what is outside the cropped frame much like a bright line finder does. And the 47MP sensor allows that crop and still maintains good image quality.
So what’s the answer if you don’t use Leica or Fuji; the answer is accessory bright line viewfinders that slip into the accessory/flash shoe on your camera. But there’s a catch. I looked up some used Leitz bright line viewfinders on the web and saw prices of $500 to $800. For somebody who bought his viewfinders new many years ago - that is ridiculous. But once again, Voigtlander comes to the rescue of those in the Leica world. They make a set of bright line finders at reasonable prices the can really increase the versatility of small digital camera.
We live in a camera world where we view most of those images we are about to take through a system that accurately shows us a depiction of the final frame. And that’s a good thing - until it isn’t. Every once in a while it is a very good thing to see a little more of the world than your TTL view shows. Actually, for me, that’s a lot of the time when I’m looking for pictures in a situation I don’t control. But I look around and often think I am in the minority. I’d love to hear your thoughts on looking through a camera. After all, you just put up with a rather lengthy diatribe on my part.
But cameras with bright line finders have been even less popular in the digital age than they were in the last years of film’s dominance. Currently, you have the digital Leica M series, but the bodies and lenses are far beyond the budget of many photographers, especially if they shoot with multiple bodies. You have the more reasonably priced APS-c Fuji XPro-3 with useful frame lines for the 35, 40, 50 and 75mm equivalent lenses and the Fuji 100V with its fixed 35mm equivalent. There is also one other alternative I know of, the Leica Q or Q2. While they are electronic finder cameras, the frame line can be set to show the framing of longer focal lengths than the 28mm fixed lens on the camera (35, 50 and 75 of the Q2), showing you what is outside the cropped frame much like a bright line finder does. And the 47MP sensor allows that crop and still maintains good image quality.
So what’s the answer if you don’t use Leica or Fuji; the answer is accessory bright line viewfinders that slip into the accessory/flash shoe on your camera. But there’s a catch. I looked up some used Leitz bright line viewfinders on the web and saw prices of $500 to $800. For somebody who bought his viewfinders new many years ago - that is ridiculous. But once again, Voigtlander comes to the rescue of those in the Leica world. They make a set of bright line finders at reasonable prices the can really increase the versatility of small digital camera.
We live in a camera world where we view most of those images we are about to take through a system that accurately shows us a depiction of the final frame. And that’s a good thing - until it isn’t. Every once in a while it is a very good thing to see a little more of the world than your TTL view shows. Actually, for me, that’s a lot of the time when I’m looking for pictures in a situation I don’t control. But I look around and often think I am in the minority. I’d love to hear your thoughts on looking through a camera. After all, you just put up with a rather lengthy diatribe on my part.
D
Deleted member 65559
Guest
Bill, I don't work with digital cameras, but I absolutely agree with you. The ability to see around the frame of the lens, is the reason why I prefer the M2/M4 over the M3. The simplicity of these viewfinders is also why I gave up using the (new) MP, as i found the extra viewfinder lines distracting. As for accessory finders, I often use them with the 21 and 35. Thanks for all your writing in the past on the Leica system.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
Happy to read one of your diatribes any day Bill. And I agree with you on the price of accessory bright line viewfinders. They are getting ridiculous. And now that Voigtlander has discontinued most of their finders, the prices are probably really going to go thru the roof.
I like to hold on to old equipment that worked well for me in the past, so the Voigtlanders and Nikon finders are staying put (tho the Nikon finders aren't really bright lines, and don't really show what's beyond the frame). Never could afford Leica finders.
Best,
-Tim
I like to hold on to old equipment that worked well for me in the past, so the Voigtlanders and Nikon finders are staying put (tho the Nikon finders aren't really bright lines, and don't really show what's beyond the frame). Never could afford Leica finders.
Best,
-Tim
charjohncarter
Veteran
It happened to me today. I was trying out a roll of Tmax 3200 (courtesy of Kodak Alaris, thanks Tim) in a camera that could DX it: a SLR. I was shooting a building trying to fire off in between cars, I couldn't, of course, see just beyond the frame. Just as a snapped a silent Tesla drove into the frame. They should have an app for those cars that produces the sound of a good old American V-8 with glasspacks.
Dogman
Veteran
I've never been a big fan of EVFs even though I've owned numerous cameras that used them. The longer I have used them, the less I liked them. That's why I now frequently use and like the Fuji XPro and X100 series cameras--optical viewfinders. The XP3 is a bit too gimmicky for me and the OVF has been reduced in utility compared to the previous models but I'm perfectly happy sticking with the XP2 and on occasions I still use the XP1. I only have myself to please with my photography, no clients, no bosses, no requirements.
When Olympus introduced their M4/3 cameras I jumped right in almost immediately and bought the EP1, later an EP2. Lacking finders, they had limited utility for me, however, I was mainly using 35mm and 50mm equivalent lenses so I bought some older accessory finders. They worked well for the time I used those particular cameras. These days I sometimes shoot with a Ricoh GRII without a finder--it took some getting used to for me to shoot like this but eventually I did. Holding the camera out in front of me, I can see the surrounding area and that's something I had never considered before.
When Olympus introduced their M4/3 cameras I jumped right in almost immediately and bought the EP1, later an EP2. Lacking finders, they had limited utility for me, however, I was mainly using 35mm and 50mm equivalent lenses so I bought some older accessory finders. They worked well for the time I used those particular cameras. These days I sometimes shoot with a Ricoh GRII without a finder--it took some getting used to for me to shoot like this but eventually I did. Holding the camera out in front of me, I can see the surrounding area and that's something I had never considered before.
raydm6
Yay! Cameras! 🙈🙉🙊┌( ಠ_ಠ)┘ [◉"]
Yes, totally agree Bill. I have dedicated Leitz 50/90/135 BL finders for LTM and M and love using them.
There have been several dedicated forums eschewing the virtue and beauty of the BL finders.
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/leitz-briteline-finders-a-love-story.305238/
Sometimes, you can find a deal and not pay an exorbitant price. You Have to hunt around.
I would love to play with a Leitz sports finder but they are pricey.
There have been several dedicated forums eschewing the virtue and beauty of the BL finders.
https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/leitz-briteline-finders-a-love-story.305238/
Sometimes, you can find a deal and not pay an exorbitant price. You Have to hunt around.
I would love to play with a Leitz sports finder but they are pricey.
lynnb
Veteran
Bill I agree, my favorite street cameras are a Barnack with an external Leica (5cm) or Voigtlander (35mm, 21/25mm) finders, and a (film) CL. A joy to use for the reasons you mentioned. I sometimes use an OM4 and nice as that camera and its big bright finder is, it's not as useful.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I have all kinds of cameras, both film and digital, from subminiature to 6x9cm format. And they have all kinds of viewfinders ... none at all, reflex, optical tunnel, wire-frame, LCD, EVF.
Focusing and framing are two separate things that a viewfinder does. Although combined into one device, most of the time, they're two separate things that you need to learn how to do. Some kinds of focusing aid or mechanism work better in some situations than others.
Viewing/framing is separate: Every camera sees differently, every viewfinder is intended to help you frame what the camera sees. TTL cameras with EVFs or LCDs are the most accurate when it comes to framing; cameras with no viewfinder at all are the most approximate; the others lie in between.
Pick whichever camera is appropriate to what you're trying to achieve and work with it to learn how to see what it sees ... then you can start making photographs that capture what your intent is and satisfy you. That's all.
The business of being able to 'see beyond the frame lines' with an RF viewfinder is often ballyhooed as a huge advantage. But you can see beyond the frame with any camera ... just open both eyes.
The Voigtländer Kontur viewfinders they made in the 1950s are based on this principle: You open both eyes, look through the viewfinder with one, look at the subject field with the other. The viewfinder provides just a frame, your other eye sees the scene, and your brain merges the two into a bright, clear framing guide on a wide field scene that you can see clearly. I have one of these I use with my Perkeo II and for that camera it provides an outstanding framing tool.
G
Focusing and framing are two separate things that a viewfinder does. Although combined into one device, most of the time, they're two separate things that you need to learn how to do. Some kinds of focusing aid or mechanism work better in some situations than others.
Viewing/framing is separate: Every camera sees differently, every viewfinder is intended to help you frame what the camera sees. TTL cameras with EVFs or LCDs are the most accurate when it comes to framing; cameras with no viewfinder at all are the most approximate; the others lie in between.
Pick whichever camera is appropriate to what you're trying to achieve and work with it to learn how to see what it sees ... then you can start making photographs that capture what your intent is and satisfy you. That's all.
The business of being able to 'see beyond the frame lines' with an RF viewfinder is often ballyhooed as a huge advantage. But you can see beyond the frame with any camera ... just open both eyes.
The Voigtländer Kontur viewfinders they made in the 1950s are based on this principle: You open both eyes, look through the viewfinder with one, look at the subject field with the other. The viewfinder provides just a frame, your other eye sees the scene, and your brain merges the two into a bright, clear framing guide on a wide field scene that you can see clearly. I have one of these I use with my Perkeo II and for that camera it provides an outstanding framing tool.
G
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
28mm and 35mm Cosina made viewfinders were discontinued in 2016. Last ones were sold out for 299 USD.
For puppies I'm finding good AF to be much more valuable than any RF, including Leica.
For 35mm VF with bright lines I'm using VF from Olympus XA. For 50mm SBOOI, I paid 100 CAD for it. But it is not as fast and ergonomic as frame lines in camera VF. Every time I watch Winograd switching between 28 VF and in camera RF it is discouraging. It only makes sense on Barnack sized cameras to me.
For puppies I'm finding good AF to be much more valuable than any RF, including Leica.
For 35mm VF with bright lines I'm using VF from Olympus XA. For 50mm SBOOI, I paid 100 CAD for it. But it is not as fast and ergonomic as frame lines in camera VF. Every time I watch Winograd switching between 28 VF and in camera RF it is discouraging. It only makes sense on Barnack sized cameras to me.
zuiko85
Veteran
Do it yourself to the rescue. Picked up several one use and cheap plastic 35mm cameras at goodwill outlets and never paid more than $2 each. An X-Acto razor saw and knives, scrounged plastic for accessory shoe feet, bin o bits and small screws and black masking tape.
Add ingredients to pleasant afternoon and out pops cheap finders. No bright lines but if you use one that had a 27 or 28mm lens original you still can use them for a 35mm lens, one from a camera that had a 35 for a 50 etc.
Or, you can go out and spend $$$$ for good finders, and if you have that much disposable cash laying about.....more power to ya.
And yes, I’ve mounted them on my SLR shoe when I wanted a fast framing vf (albeit inaccurate).
Edit; Don’t know its field of view, but the Olympus VF-1 goes for $50-$70 used on ebay. Might be a fairly good buy.
Add ingredients to pleasant afternoon and out pops cheap finders. No bright lines but if you use one that had a 27 or 28mm lens original you still can use them for a 35mm lens, one from a camera that had a 35 for a 50 etc.
Or, you can go out and spend $$$$ for good finders, and if you have that much disposable cash laying about.....more power to ya.
And yes, I’ve mounted them on my SLR shoe when I wanted a fast framing vf (albeit inaccurate).
Edit; Don’t know its field of view, but the Olympus VF-1 goes for $50-$70 used on ebay. Might be a fairly good buy.
willie_901
Veteran
Being able to compose wile viewing what's outside of the camera image’s frame lines is how come I started using film rangefinder cameras (Canonet G-III QL17 and Zeiss Ikon ZM).
Back in 2011 Leica's Digital Ms were not for me. I decided the Epson RD-1 was a dead end.
So, the OVF was the only reason I took a risk back in late winter 2012 and ordered one of the first X-100 cameras to be delivered to the midwest US.
The original X-100 had issues - it was sluggish, the lens has flare artifacts with bright, point light sources, some had sticky aperture blades (mine didn't) and above ISO 800 shadow regions had color banding artifacts (mine did).
Despite these issues I had a digital alternative to my Canonet G-III QL17. I could compose with the X-100 just as I did with the Canonet. So I was happy.
I occasionally wonder what digital camera I would have used If the FUJIFILM never developed an EVF/OVF option. In 2010 I owned a Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 for a short time. I missed the 3X2 image format and the G1 IQ was worse than my D200's. This is ancient history but I M4/3 was not for me.
I guess by 2014 I would have capitulated and bought a M (Typ 240). I'm happy I didn't have to.
Oddly, seeing outside the framelines was not a factor when I got a used M2 and 35mm Summicron, since I couldn't even see the whole 35mm frame at once. Had to move my eye around to see the edges. At the time I was mainly a Pentax user so I was used to not seeing around the outside. It was a revelation then to later use a goggled Summaron and see more, and that's the reason I got it. I can't see the 28mm frames on later M cameras either...
kangaroo2012
Established
I still use an Ebony 4x5 and the wire frame that was supplied with it.
I have modified it with a piece of string.
There are knots in the string so when I hold the finder with a knot against my nose, the finder is set for the lens I have in use. Very simple to calibrate using the ground glass back and a bit of patience.
Not action photograp[hy but good for finding subjects without setting up the tripod.
Cheers
Philip
I have modified it with a piece of string.
There are knots in the string so when I hold the finder with a knot against my nose, the finder is set for the lens I have in use. Very simple to calibrate using the ground glass back and a bit of patience.
Not action photograp[hy but good for finding subjects without setting up the tripod.
Cheers
Philip
gavinlg
Veteran
I strongly prefer an optical frameline style camera. For this reason, my cameras of preference are the Leica M/fuji x100/Fuji X-pro series.
Being able to see outside the framelines is one of the reasons - the other is the focussing patch style focussing is quicker and easier for me than SLR or autofocus style shooting, and the uninterrupted view (uninterrupted by a mirror or blackout or exposure). I feel it keeps me 'in the moment' and without distraction.
Being able to see outside the framelines is one of the reasons - the other is the focussing patch style focussing is quicker and easier for me than SLR or autofocus style shooting, and the uninterrupted view (uninterrupted by a mirror or blackout or exposure). I feel it keeps me 'in the moment' and without distraction.
Pál_K
Cameras. I has it.
That is a professional secret!
Ambro51
Collector/Photographer
Best and easiest viewfinder I’ve ever used.
I used to feel this way...but I've really learned to love EVFs because I can see my exposure (generally speaking) before I make a photo. Also, I only bring my camera to my eye to make the photo quickly these days. Not seeing outside of my frame doesn't bother me anymore... I can anticipate that they are coming in other ways... (like Godfrey mentioned...opening the other eye!).
BillBingham2
Registered User
I rather like seeing what's out side the frame. I'd love to see Fuji implement something like the Leica Q in all their EVF bodies. It would be a lot less expensive than changing the EVF to be 1:1 so I can keep both eyes open.
I find it handy when I deciding how to frame the image. I still try to fill the frame rather than crop afterward, but that's me.
B2 (;->
I find it handy when I deciding how to frame the image. I still try to fill the frame rather than crop afterward, but that's me.
B2 (;->
pluton
Well-known
On my (former) film Leicas, seeing outside the frame always helped me quickly get the best available composition.
Reflex finders make composition more laborious. There's often constant checking between the finder and the scene to achieve a good composition. Zooms can help to see what's outside the frame, I suppose, but again...more work.
Supplementary bright line or sports finders are potentially useful and fun to play with, but without lenses that support zone or scale focusing, the constant shuttling of the eye between the view hole and focusing hole becomes too much fiddling, not enough photography.
No current lenses (that I know of) support scale focusing except Leica-M and Voigtlander-M lenses.
No AF lens I've seen can be scale focused.
My 2 Fuji-X primes have scales, but the scales are too compact to be useful...IF they were accurate, which they are not.
Some of the now-ancient Nikon-F manual focus lenses I've got, built in the 1970's, have usable scales but often are inaccurate.
Reflex finders make composition more laborious. There's often constant checking between the finder and the scene to achieve a good composition. Zooms can help to see what's outside the frame, I suppose, but again...more work.
Supplementary bright line or sports finders are potentially useful and fun to play with, but without lenses that support zone or scale focusing, the constant shuttling of the eye between the view hole and focusing hole becomes too much fiddling, not enough photography.
No current lenses (that I know of) support scale focusing except Leica-M and Voigtlander-M lenses.
No AF lens I've seen can be scale focused.
My 2 Fuji-X primes have scales, but the scales are too compact to be useful...IF they were accurate, which they are not.
Some of the now-ancient Nikon-F manual focus lenses I've got, built in the 1970's, have usable scales but often are inaccurate.
Michael Markey
Veteran
This .... except I never saw the "advantage "of seeing outside the frame lines .
Just used the other eye .