A Lot Of Grain When Scanning

[olifaunt]

Might also look at sharpening. Some of that 'salt and pepper' look in skies and other light expanses. I turn off any sharpening from the scanner program. Then in Photoshop using Unsharp Mask, set the threshold to 2 or 3 and see what happens. It's a delicate balance because you need to sharpen scans but it can make a mess in some ways.

I agree sharpening will magnify grain, it is one reason not to do it.

But why do you say you need to sharpen scans (assuming a fine enough scan)? No good can come of it in my experience. Sharpening by definition throws away information in any image. (It is not a reversible transformation.)

 

[fky463]

Thank you so much for your answers. I will try to develop one more roll including all the things u mentioned. Temp/fixer. Erik my next developer will be - Ilford Perceptol. Im not saying Xtol is bad or smth. I just want to try it. I need to find my way. Thx for everyone!

 

[Borge H]

Multiple problems here, film looks over developed or overexposed, and it is badly under fixed or fogged.

And, I'm with Peter, it looks like it was scanned at very low resolution, with jpeg compression artifacts on top of that.

Tri-X and Xtol are not the problem here, though I agree that Tmax films are very good.

I agree! Tri-X and X-tol (fresh!) is good and gives nice results!

The negatives should be clear after fixing, the now look like they had to short fixing time. A good advice is to test the fixer with the cut-off starting slip of the film. Observe then the time necessary to clear the film. That is the proper fixation time!

I also think that the negative looks very dirty, perhaps there is also reticulation (rinsing in too hot water). I aways rinse in cold water after have I had these problems long time ago. But I think modern films are not as sensitive like old Tri-X.

My advice:
1) Fix the film once again before it gets destroyed by light.
2) Rinse it again in one hour in cold water. Add just a drop of wetting agent (or a drop of hand wash liquid) to the last rinse water.
3) Dry the film in a dust free place. A very good place is the shower!

 

[retinax]

[...] A good advice is to test the fixer with the cut-off starting slip of the film. Observe then the time necessary to clear the film. That is the proper fixation time![...]

This is dangerous advice. Fixing time should be at least twice the clearing time. Clearing time needs to be measured as comparison, not just eyeballed, how to: see here: http://rogerandfrances.com/subscription/fixer exhaustion.html

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

First, with a magnifier, can you see the grain in the negative?

Wild guess: If IR cleaning is turned on in your scanners, it can produce something like that.

 

[jim_jm]

A lot of good advice here regarding scanning issues, but first deal with your film processing problem. Your film should not look like it does in the photo you provided. You WILL NOT get satisfactory images (scan or print) from negatives that look like this.

1. Your film was fogged either before or during processing, OR
2. Your film has not been in the fixer for long enough time.
Or a combination of both of these.

To test your fixer, take a snip off the leader and place it in a cup of fixer, stir occasionally. Note the amount of time it takes to clear (may still have a purple or pink tint), then double that to get the proper fixing time when you process your roll. For example, if the test takes 4 min to clear, fix your film for at least 8 min. Make sure to also wash your film for the manufacturer's recommended time.

 

[Tim Gray]

A lot of good suggestions already. I’ve found that it’s always worth scanning at the highest resolution possible (4000 dpi or so). I think it’s called grain aliasing, but with grainier films it makes things look better. But that one scan does look like it’s a processing issue.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

" Rinse it again in one hour in cold water."
Proper technique requires having the pre-soak, developer, stop bath, fixer & rinse water at the same temperature. Classically 68F or 20C. As mentioned any hot temperatures will cause reticulation.

 

[Bill Clark]

Yes It could be true, I need to try another roll and wash it with cold water. Thx!

Suggest keeping the temps close to the same with your developer, stop bath, fixer and wash water.

Keep at it and you’ll get better and better.

I’m still learning.

 

[willie_901]

Negative Development and Digitization

Negative Development and Digitization

Optimizing negative development is important. Some development techniques are likely to be more compatible with inherent image digitization limitations. At the same time, a wide variety of development techniques can produce high quality images when digitization parameters are optimized. Different development techniques can mean require different digitization parameters.

Negative and transparency digitization is subject to spatial artifacts.

Spatial artifacts are minimized by optimizing the digitization parameters. This is essentially maximizing the system modulation transfer function.

There is no inherent reason for Plustek scans to produce images with flawed grain rendering. Of course inherently (or needlessly) grainy negatives will render as high-grain images.

Optimizing scan parameters can be tedious. Many tutorials available on line.

Unlike film development where a multitude of variables make direct comparisons difficult, negative digitization is bound by information theory. Once you figure out how to optimize parameters for the Plustek scanning hardware you will be set.

 

[punkzter]

They look a little like when I've underexposed and then the scanner has to adjust the brightness.

 

[RObert Budding]

It is better to work with a better developer, like Ilford Perceptol. Truly great stuff. Use a good film, Kodak Tmax400 (400-2TMY). Very fine grain combined with high speed.



Erik.

Nonsense. XTOL is an excellent developer.

 

[jim_jm]

XTOL will work fine with your film, same as HC110, D-76 and a number of other developers from Kodak and other manufacturers.
Your BIGGEST problem is the film processing was done incorrectly. Your film was also possibly fogged.

Don't even try to think about troubleshooting scanning issues until you process the film correctly.

 

[Dan]

This is essentially maximizing the system modulation transfer function.

Does this mean something? :bang:

 

[Borge H]

" Rinse it again in one hour in cold water."
Proper technique requires having the pre-soak, developer, stop bath, fixer & rinse water at the same temperature. Classically 68F or 20C. As mentioned any hot temperatures will cause reticulation.

This the best way to get reticulation. The reason is that you will probably keep the temperatures at 20C in the developer, stop bath and fix. But is not easy to keep the tap water temperature constant when rinsing in a sink, even with a thermostat. The hot water can be hotter during rinse as the water flows from the hot water heater to your tap. Everybody who showers know this!

The old Tri-X in the 60-ties was very sensitive to this. I have never been succesful in keeping the rinse temperature constant from the sink. I remember developing Tri-X in D-163 at 1:3, this was more sensitive than using Tri-X with D-76 at 1:1. But I have read that modern films are not as sensitiv like old films. I think the reason is that the modern silver layers are different and thinner. But rinsing in cold water always works, I think the danger is the changing temperatures from 20C to varm to cold to varm!

If I want to use rinse water at 20C I have sometimes stored cold water a day or two in a 20 liter plastic container to get the room temperature 20C. I have then used the Ilford rinse method, which is very quick. But I most time use running cold water in my sink, as I have not the time to use the Ilford rinse method.

To first time developer, like the OP, I think it is easier to use cold water than trying unsuccesfully to have constant 20C water from your sink taps!

 

[retinax]

I don't think it's reticulation. I have never seen it in person, but examples on the internet look different and it's said that it's hard to get reticulation with modern films. Certainly a few degrees difference in wash temperature don't harm the film, or what would happen if one developes Film in a very warm or cold room and the first 20°C bath hits the film? Nobody ever warns of that, because it's not an issue. This looks like as fixing or fogging, perhaps compounded by bad scanning technique, and excessive image compression.

 

[DownUnder]

XTOL will work fine with your film, same as HC110, D-76 and a number of other developers from Kodak and other manufacturers.
Your BIGGEST problem is the film processing was done incorrectly. Your film was also possibly fogged.

Don't even try to think about troubleshooting scanning issues until you process the film correctly.

I'm 99.9% with jim_jm on this one. Old film, fogged from age or badly stored. Likely ISO 400 or faster. In my house the fast emulsions fog almost overnight.

Also looks overexposed or maybe overdeveloped. Or both.

Where did anyone see signs of reticulation or too little fixing? Unlikely it's the former, it could be the latter, but in my 50 years of darkroom life, I've not seen any of this before.

The OP's technique needs careful examining and improving in all ways - buying film, shooting, processing, scanning.

Do a small test if you like. Buy a roll of fresh film, 36 exposures. Shoot it as you usually do.

In the darkroom, take a length of about a third of the film. Process normally in Xtol, D76, ID11, whichever. Fix the full time. Evaluate.

Now take a second length of about a third. Process for twice the normal time. ix the full time. Evaluate.

Finally, take the third (last) length. Process normally. Fix for a third of the full time. Evaluate.

The results may reveal everything to you. If not, get back to us, please, and post another image of the new results.

Tedious, maybe yes. But as the old saying goes, "if at first you don't succeed, you're batting about average".

Best!

Let us know how it turns out.

 

[dfranklin]

I don't think it's reticulation. I have never seen it in person, but examples on the internet look different and it's said that it's hard to get reticulation with modern films. Certainly a few degrees difference in wash temperature don't harm the film, or what would happen if one developes Film in a very warm or cold room and the first 20°C bath hits the film? Nobody ever warns of that, because it's not an issue. This looks like as fixing or fogging, perhaps compounded by bad scanning technique, and excessive image compression.

My understanding is that temperature difference between ambient air and the first bath is not an issue because the emulsion is not yet wet. Reticulation is a risk when a wet emulsion is exposed to significant changes in temperature.

I control temperature very carefully to avoid this risk. This is one reason why I usually don't develop from mid-July to mid-September, when the cold water coming out of my tap is often between 75 and 78 F.

 

[Corran]

THIS IS HOW NEGATIVE LOOKS - https://imgur.com/a/oUiW8pO

You have serious problems with your technique or your film. This is not a scanner issue, a computer issue, reticulation, or anything else like that. Your negatives look horrendous - frankly my guess is you are using old expired film found in a barn or something and has massive amounts of fog, as that pic shows exactly what I've seen from film stored in those conditions. Or they were grossly under fixed.

 

[Jamie123]

Hasn't it been established already that the films were most likely under-fixed? I think we should just let the OP fix (pun not intended) this problem first and then re-examine what else he can change to further improve his workflow.