A message from cosina.co.jp re. R3A and 25/4

[CameraQuest]

does this mean they'll still probably go out of business?

it means Leica needs younger buyers, and that means an affordable entry into the Leica M system.

Stephen

 

[ghost]

leica doesn't need to offer entry-level m cameras and lenses to attract young customers. they're just there for people who are ready to plunk down the cash. the m-mount being the de facto standard makes this truer than ever.

 

[sherm]

leica doesn't need to offer entry-level m cameras and lenses to attract young customers. they're just there for people who are ready to plunk down the cash. the m-mount being the de facto standard makes this truer than ever.

More trolling on your part?

In business, if you don't grow you eventually fall behind and sometimes DIE. Every manufacturer of widgets needs to attract new customers and entry level items are one of the best ways to grow customer loyalty.

BMW is another fine German company that offers cars from the 3 series all the way to the coveted 7 series. They don't however, just manufacture the 750il and wait for somebody to come by and "plunk" the cash down on it as you put it.

Maybe you should stick to the P&S threads😉

 

[mc_vancouver]

Ich habe wirklich nicht einen Anhaltspunkt, über was Sie sprechen, aber auf dem Kamerasuche Aufstellungsort es eine Ansage über das Ende des Skopar Objektivs gibt. Was die Kamera anbetrifft, er würde sein das erste zu wissen, ich sich vorstellt.
(Which, translated back from German to English, reads: I do not have really a reference point, about which you speak, but on camera search the place of assembly it an announcement over the end of the Skopar of objective gives. Which concerns the camera, would know it its first, I introduces myself.) It made sense the first time I wrote it...

 

[ghost]

More trolling on your part?

In business, if you don't grow you eventually fall behind and sometimes DIE. Every manufacturer of widgets needs to attract new customers and entry level items are one of the best ways to grow customer loyalty.

BMW is another fine German company that offers cars from the 3 series all the way to the coveted 7 series. They don't however, just manufacture the 750il and wait for somebody to come by and "plunk" the cash down on it as you put it.

Maybe you should stick to the P&S threads😉

hunting for trolls, eh? anyone you disagree with is a troll? didn't know what i said was so controversial. hmm...

why does leica need entry level items in the m-system to get customer loyalty? they've got that in *****s. and the brand is so strong, they have mobs of would-be customers. practically everyone that buys a voigtlander or panasonic (that has been rebadged as a leica) is a would-be leica customer. they're just more affordable alternatives and don't command a similar loyalty.

why didn't leica do what voigtlander did? were there good reasons? even though digital took over, voigtlander could still turn a profit.

and why does leica especially need younger buyers? younger than what? i'd imagine all they need are people who can afford their stuff, or can't but get it anyway.

 

[rxmd]

why didn't leica do what voigtlander did? were there good reasons?

No. They were stupid. They developed the M5 without noticing that it wouldn't be accepted by their userbase - that's what market research is for. They developed the CL as a low-cost entry model and then discovered that it was good enough for pro's too, at which point they killed it because it endangered other sales - always a sign of some skew in your product repertoire. After this shock, they wanted to kill rangefinders altogether and had to be convinced otherwise by one of their regional subdivisions. After that, they did innovate but had to be dragged towards any single innovation - metering: Minolta CLE; AE: any other camera since 1975.

All this doesn't sound very rational.

and why does leica especially need younger buyers? younger than what? i'd imagine all they need are people who can afford their stuff, or can't but get it anyway.

I guess there would be more people who can afford their stuff if their stuff was more affordable. After all, they're doing it in the compact digicam market. Panasonic sells a camera for EUR 500 and Leica the same camera with minor differences for EUR 600 and people do buy the Leica.

At the moment the biggest competitor to Leica are used Leica bodies. If you can get an M4-P for EUR 450 and a M6TTL for EUR 800, why bother shelling out an extra couple of thousands for a new Leica? I don't see how I'd get what I'd pay for. If I want religion, I can go to church.

The reason why Leica doesn't produce low-cost bodies is very simple: if there was a cheaper Leica, nobody would buy the more expensive Leicas, and people would start asking if the expensive Leicas are really worth it. The CL effect at work.

Philipp

 

[sherm]

No. They were stupid. They developed the M5 without noticing that it wouldn't be accepted by their userbase - that's what market research is for. They developed the CL as a low-cost entry model and then discovered that it was good enough for pro's too, at which point they killed it because it endangered other sales - always a sign of some skew in your product repertoire. After this shock, they wanted to kill rangefinders altogether and had to be convinced otherwise by one of their regional subdivisions. After that, they did innovate but had to be dragged towards any single innovation - metering: Minolta CLE; AE: any other camera since 1975.

All this doesn't sound very rational.



I guess there would be more people who can afford their stuff if their stuff was more affordable. After all, they're doing it in the compact digicam market. Panasonic sells a camera for EUR 500 and Leica the same camera with minor differences for EUR 600 and people do buy the Leica.

At the moment the biggest competitor to Leica are used Leica bodies. If you can get an M4-P for EUR 450 and a M6TTL for EUR 800, why bother shelling out an extra couple of thousands for a new Leica? I don't see how I'd get what I'd pay for. If I want religion, I can go to church.

The reason why Leica doesn't produce low-cost bodies is very simple: if there was a cheaper Leica, nobody would buy the more expensive Leicas, and people would start asking if the expensive Leicas are really worth it. The CL effect at work.

Philipp

Would not have been able to say it better

Well done Phillip!!

 

[ghost]

you know, the m5/cl brouhaha had more to do with competing against slrs than competing against each other. and here we are, once again thinking that leica's main competitor is itself and not someone else.

 

[anselwannab]

I understand the CL Effect arguement, but it is that easy to undermine your flagship sales with a much lower product it means two things.

If you don't canabalize your sales, someone will do it for you.

It isn't actually the product that poeple want, its the brand.

I think the best way to deal with it is to do a bit of both. Have your lower end be a different brand, whether it be Minolta or resurrect some old German label that sells a lesser product. Voigtlander/Cosina did this for Leica, when Leica should have done it for themselves.

RF is a bit odd since you have subsitute goods in the form of SLRs. In some ways SLRs are more the entry vehicle for RF photographers. SLRs are kind of like cast golf clubs with a large sweet spot and an offset shaft and RF cameras are forged irons. I wouldn't suggest starting off with the forged clubs because they are difficult to hit but give greater control. Cast clubs are easier to hit, but it is hard to really be competitive with them.

Not really a perfect comparo, but close. Maybe BB gun and a Tubb 2000 rifle would be a better analogy.

Anyway..

Mark

 

[Trius]

Oh boy. Now this thread will go OT since the argument will be that Leica has mis-stepped by not sponsoring a major golf tournament. They should do that and all the balls should have a red dot.

 

[anselwannab]

Only if the balls are still made of feathers, cat gut, and shellac. Then there will be the arguement, does it have to be in Scotland to be true golf. Some will lament that the hickory shafts are much better than the new graphite shafts, and worry if hickory will no longer be made.

This isn't going to be pretty.

Mark