Nh3
Well-known
Some of the painters who posted in this thread really touched on what I was getting at subconsciously.
The canvas. The painter is restricted to the canvas size and must organize everything in that space. He can chose before hand the size of canvas but that's not cropping.
With this post I have created a canvas for myself to work within... And by doing so I already feel mentally comfortable because now I can see my boundaries. Sometimes too many options can confuse and drain one's energy. And that's exactly what had happened to me, I had too many options, too many subjects and had to deal with too much information most of it useless. That eventually caused me to burn-out and, since photography is my only means of self expression it was quite hard on me.
I think the only way I can findout if I have the talent and aptitude to become a decent photographer is by putting myself through a rigrous regimn and see what happens.
The canvas. The painter is restricted to the canvas size and must organize everything in that space. He can chose before hand the size of canvas but that's not cropping.
With this post I have created a canvas for myself to work within... And by doing so I already feel mentally comfortable because now I can see my boundaries. Sometimes too many options can confuse and drain one's energy. And that's exactly what had happened to me, I had too many options, too many subjects and had to deal with too much information most of it useless. That eventually caused me to burn-out and, since photography is my only means of self expression it was quite hard on me.
I think the only way I can findout if I have the talent and aptitude to become a decent photographer is by putting myself through a rigrous regimn and see what happens.
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
HCB had his images printed full-frame, with a thin, black border around them (perhaps from the printer's negative carrier machined a bit extra large?) at least the ones I've seen in person at Andrew Smith's in Santa Fe.
I think the decision to fill an 8"x10" print paper, by cropping the negative's image, is a conscious decision. Sure, premanufactured window mattes and frames make that decision seem temptingly affordable as compared to custom-cut mattes and frames; but then there is a price to be paid for self-discipline.
One could do worse than to emulate some of the decisions made by the masters of the medium.
Thanks for the interesting post, NH3.
~Joe
two40
Member
Nh3, I'm sorry but this sounds elitist and restrictive. You would far better serve yourself if you opened up and took on Roger's advice; 'whatever it takes'. But if whatever it takes is a manifist such as this then by all means I wish you all the success in the world.
Ororaro
Well-known
I don't care for him-at all.
I crop when I think it's better to crop, and I don't believe in the "Not cropping=better photographer" stupid mentality. More then 90% of my work is uncropped and very well composed but if a shot needs cropping, I'll do it. Who cares about HCB or whichever master you want to wake from the dead.
Chris101
summicronia
The edges of the picture are part and parcel of what a photograph is. It is finite in it's two dimensions of width and height, outside of which the photographer has no control (but of course the viewer does!)
What you have done is created boundaries that are in addition to the physical edge of the picture, in an attempt of making it more of a photograph. This is similar to using black and white as opposed to color, using only a 50mm lens, or any number of other constraining techniques.
Good luck to you with this experiment. I will be interested to read your findings, hopefully with examples of the effect on actual photographs.
What you have done is created boundaries that are in addition to the physical edge of the picture, in an attempt of making it more of a photograph. This is similar to using black and white as opposed to color, using only a 50mm lens, or any number of other constraining techniques.
Good luck to you with this experiment. I will be interested to read your findings, hopefully with examples of the effect on actual photographs.
Chris101
summicronia
I think that sloppy black edge around a b&w print looks cool, so I love printing that way.
R
RML
Guest
NH3, good for you! Go with your manifesto. I disagree with every single letter in it, but it's not my personal manifesto. So, you keep at it. I hope it'll give you what you need. Really.
ampguy
Veteran
With RF's, the cropping to fit a standard frame is likely what you saw in the viewfinder frame lines anyways. If you're printing RF full frames, they're probably including a lot of stuff that was outside your frame lines.
RF's and the cropping to fit a 4x6 frame is "self-correcting", 8x10 is a bit of a stretch.
RF's and the cropping to fit a 4x6 frame is "self-correcting", 8x10 is a bit of a stretch.
T
Todd.Hanz
Guest
good thoughts, well written, here's a guy that has seen/taken some crappy street pics and these are his ideas on how to improve his photography.
Is street photography dying? Hardly, I think it is changing. Some how we went from quickly focusing, composing and shooting to throwing the camera up and pressing the shutter without much thought. Shooting people up close (less than 3 feet) has become the norm (my self included). Good thoughts by all, variety is the spice of life though.
Todd
Is street photography dying? Hardly, I think it is changing. Some how we went from quickly focusing, composing and shooting to throwing the camera up and pressing the shutter without much thought. Shooting people up close (less than 3 feet) has become the norm (my self included). Good thoughts by all, variety is the spice of life though.
Todd
aad
Not so new now.
Well, if you don't want to crop, that's fine, though it seems an necessary restriction. If I have a 35mm lens and want a certain perspective, yet want to fill the frame, I have no real choice except to back off to get the perspective right and crop later.
Anyway, it's your choice. For the record, HCB's most famous picture was cropped.
Anyway, it's your choice. For the record, HCB's most famous picture was cropped.
georgef
Well-known
NH3, I totally understand your motive to put together a strict personal rule system to achieve something. I apply that rule to many aspects of my life, including martial arts and architecture. Its a frame of mind more that anything else.
I do nto agree with any of the items you have described within, but you did not write that for me, or anyone else here, so good on you.
If I do comment though, your description of the dos and donts sounds a lot like a description of the limitations of film VS digital i terms of the format, the cropping resistance, the "work within the box" mentalilty. To me the rules are simple: Lift the camera........finalize the image (be it print or otherwise). Everthing in between is part of the creative process.
I do nto agree with any of the items you have described within, but you did not write that for me, or anyone else here, so good on you.
If I do comment though, your description of the dos and donts sounds a lot like a description of the limitations of film VS digital i terms of the format, the cropping resistance, the "work within the box" mentalilty. To me the rules are simple: Lift the camera........finalize the image (be it print or otherwise). Everthing in between is part of the creative process.
Jason808
Established
"The medium used does not make any difference but generally a hand held camera film/digital is preferable because the street photographer should be part of the scene and not an observer from a distance with a view camera or a telephoto lens."
Two words that sum up why I respectfully disagree: Paul Strand
That said, you did qualify it as a personal manifesto so I won't begrudge your views
Two words that sum up why I respectfully disagree: Paul Strand
That said, you did qualify it as a personal manifesto so I won't begrudge your views
edrodgers731
Member
I think photography is about the experience, creativity, and the end result for the photographer, and only the end result for everyone else.
Nothing else really matters. If you are a journalist for a news source, you have rules. If you are a paid photographer you usually have rules.
If you are an independent artist, you have no rules. Make your own rules for yourself, fine. But you can't suggest that they are rules for anyone but yourself. Well, of course you can suggest that your rules should apply to others, but you would be absolutely incorrect.
There is no right and wrong in art. It's all about the journey and the interpretation.
Street photography can never die. Even if everyone had only cell phone cameras and walked around blindfolded. It means nothing to the next great master who will entertain the masses.
Nothing else really matters. If you are a journalist for a news source, you have rules. If you are a paid photographer you usually have rules.
If you are an independent artist, you have no rules. Make your own rules for yourself, fine. But you can't suggest that they are rules for anyone but yourself. Well, of course you can suggest that your rules should apply to others, but you would be absolutely incorrect.
There is no right and wrong in art. It's all about the journey and the interpretation.
Street photography can never die. Even if everyone had only cell phone cameras and walked around blindfolded. It means nothing to the next great master who will entertain the masses.
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Pherdinand
the snow must go on
i think a good street photograph is based on a concept opposite to what your post is.
It should be spontaneous, quick, simple (i.e. not complicated), without many rules but with something peculiar to say to the viewer.
It should be spontaneous, quick, simple (i.e. not complicated), without many rules but with something peculiar to say to the viewer.
Otter
Newbie
Re: the restriction on cropping.
It's a lot easier to not need to crop if you use a zoom lens. I don't see the difference between zooming in on a subject or cropping a negative taken with a wider angle prime lens (other than the issue of resolution/sharpness which can be argued either way). Should street photography use zoom lensas? I can only recall doing that once, scale focusing my old Soligor 80-230 with T mount and Miranda to LTM adaptors to my IIIf and don't plan to pack such an unweildy device again.
It's a lot easier to not need to crop if you use a zoom lens. I don't see the difference between zooming in on a subject or cropping a negative taken with a wider angle prime lens (other than the issue of resolution/sharpness which can be argued either way). Should street photography use zoom lensas? I can only recall doing that once, scale focusing my old Soligor 80-230 with T mount and Miranda to LTM adaptors to my IIIf and don't plan to pack such an unweildy device again.
FH3,
I appreciate that you are bold enough to write this manifesto explaining your structure for street photography. I too went the full frame route, refusing to print anything other than the image right out to the edge of the negs. Coming from RIT, this was a mandatory requirement, and it teaches a lot about framing and space, and that as a photog, your goal is to remove the elements that detract from the message. So I went about that for a long time, it was the way...
Then I studied more and more about Winograd, Friedlander and HCB. Some ascribed to the full frame rule, some just said "It looks good photographed". In the end, practical matters with the digital way sort of demolished the full frame. I could not afford the medium format scanners to give me such a good scan all the way out, and with a digital SLR, or RF, there's no frame line.
I used to always cut all my neg carriers to show the full frame, making special masks in the 120 holder, and using 80mm lens for 35mm film to print. But now, since the darkroom is digital for me, that's no longer there for me. I always demanded extreme corner sharpness just for this reason.
However, now I think it's more about just "What looks good photgraphed". It's intuitive for the masters, and the rest of us try to get there.
I would like to post three images, and I welcome comment about how they might fall into this manifesto.
As far as the other things about title, approach, dedication I'm behind you 100%. Give yourself structure to refine your vision and develop your style. Adams was rigorous about this, and it was his way.
I appreciate that you are bold enough to write this manifesto explaining your structure for street photography. I too went the full frame route, refusing to print anything other than the image right out to the edge of the negs. Coming from RIT, this was a mandatory requirement, and it teaches a lot about framing and space, and that as a photog, your goal is to remove the elements that detract from the message. So I went about that for a long time, it was the way...
Then I studied more and more about Winograd, Friedlander and HCB. Some ascribed to the full frame rule, some just said "It looks good photographed". In the end, practical matters with the digital way sort of demolished the full frame. I could not afford the medium format scanners to give me such a good scan all the way out, and with a digital SLR, or RF, there's no frame line.
I used to always cut all my neg carriers to show the full frame, making special masks in the 120 holder, and using 80mm lens for 35mm film to print. But now, since the darkroom is digital for me, that's no longer there for me. I always demanded extreme corner sharpness just for this reason.
However, now I think it's more about just "What looks good photgraphed". It's intuitive for the masters, and the rest of us try to get there.
I would like to post three images, and I welcome comment about how they might fall into this manifesto.
As far as the other things about title, approach, dedication I'm behind you 100%. Give yourself structure to refine your vision and develop your style. Adams was rigorous about this, and it was his way.
Nh3
Well-known
Paul, please do post your pictures.
Took a sec to upload to my gallery. I have not done so in a while...
These are not as sharp as should be. I don't have photoshop on this recently rebuilt PC to sharpen properly to reflect what's on the negs.
These are not as sharp as should be. I don't have photoshop on this recently rebuilt PC to sharpen properly to reflect what's on the negs.
anoldsock
Established
I'm a hobbyist , and a total amateur and I don't pretend to know it all, but I have a few questions. Hopefully someone will be kind enough to reply or give me some insight to the following questions.
1) I understand that you want to compose your shot, and think about your subject in the viewfinder before you press the shutter release, but why is cropping viewed in such a negative way? What's the downside of it?
2) How do you compose when shooting from the hip?
3) Also, my two cents on the comment about how the medium doesn't matter. Maybe I'm a bit dense and don't understand completely, but why is film preferred? Also by virtue of having a camera don't you become an observer and separate yourself from the subject no matter what your focal length? In other words, you can't be part of the scene if you're trying to capture it, and the camera builds a wall between yourself and the subject does it not?
Again, hopefully I don't sound too dense but I'm trying to learn from the users on this thread
Thanks!
1) I understand that you want to compose your shot, and think about your subject in the viewfinder before you press the shutter release, but why is cropping viewed in such a negative way? What's the downside of it?
2) How do you compose when shooting from the hip?
3) Also, my two cents on the comment about how the medium doesn't matter. Maybe I'm a bit dense and don't understand completely, but why is film preferred? Also by virtue of having a camera don't you become an observer and separate yourself from the subject no matter what your focal length? In other words, you can't be part of the scene if you're trying to capture it, and the camera builds a wall between yourself and the subject does it not?
Again, hopefully I don't sound too dense but I'm trying to learn from the users on this thread
Thanks!