squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
I have thought this often. Even if, somewhere out there, a pervert is jerking off looking at pictures of my kids on flickr, how is that harmful to them? And what the hell is anyone supposed to do about it? It's disgusting to consider, but you can't control what's in people's heads.
Forbidding documentation of human life is not the answer. Perverts will continue to be perverts, and maybe this would give them the impetus they need to actually physically go to the playground and watch kids there, which i think we can all agree is not good.
BillP
Rangefinder General
There is a difference between challenging and confronting. The fact that you describe this as a "parting shot" tells me where you stand.
If someone took that attitude with me my stance would harden. If you want to make matters worse, person by person, incident by incident, day by day, by all means confront.
If you want to try to do your bit - however small - to push back against this tide of paranoia, inform, explain, and educate. If you want to score points and stroke your ego, carry on being confrontational.
Regards,
Bill
Andy Kibber
Well-known
btgc
Veteran
Thanks for sharing, I like picture. Picture and story can be included in courses for photographers to show how volatile surrounding is and how not being stealthy can make a shot. Very good example.
I wonder if there's episode in South Park about those feared by cameras? If it's not yet, I hope there will be one.
I wonder if there's episode in South Park about those feared by cameras? If it's not yet, I hope there will be one.
kshapero
South Florida Man
Bend the rules, yes like a pretzel.
bmattock
Veteran
I stand on the side of goodness and decency.
If a person is demanding I do or not do something that is beyond their power to compel, I don't particularly care how hard their stance becomes. Wrong is wrong. I'm not really into molly-coddling morons.
Is it not confrontational for a person to wave their arms around, confront the photographer, and demand that they not take photographs of this or that? I keep a civil tone, but I'm not into kissing such person's behinds. Recall who started the confrontation; it wasn't the photographer.
BillP
Rangefinder General
Bill, it's up to you to be the grown-up, or to reinforce the prejudice.
Regards,
Bill
Regards,
Bill
robklurfield
eclipse
The man with his back to me in this shot, the customer of the falafel vendor, said I couldn't his picture because he claimed, "I am god. You cannot take my picture." Then, the falafel vendor followed me for half a block insisting that I'd broken some law and that he'd call the police. I tried calmly explaining that on a NYC street there is no law against photographing people or food carts. I resolved the problem by continuing to walk away knowing that at some point he'd feel the need to return to his cart. I'm not sure where he was from, but I suppose it is a part of the world where there is less freedom. That coupled with the sense he might have had that as an immigrant, he would be singled out for persecution, perhaps made him paranoid. When reason doesn't work, sometime walking away is the best solution, after, of course, taking your pix.
I sure do agree strongly with Pickett Wilson about the irrational disconnect between our meek acceptance of being filmed by surveillance equipment nearly everywhere we go versus our own rather innocent photographing of people we see in public.
I sure do agree strongly with Pickett Wilson about the irrational disconnect between our meek acceptance of being filmed by surveillance equipment nearly everywhere we go versus our own rather innocent photographing of people we see in public.
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bmattock
Veteran
This form of argument is known as 'argument to Peer Pressure,' and it is fallacious on its face. It means that if I do not 'give in' and 'act like a grown-up' (by your definition), then I am wrong.
The reason it is fallacious is because you are not an authority on what is 'grown-up' behavior, nor can you show that my behavior is or is not 'grown-up'.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
You acted wrong.
Hearing what she was "explaining" you should have gone back, tell the students ewhat teh FACTS are about the rights of photography, you should have told them why you thought it could be an interesting photo at all, then you should have smiled taken another shot and walked off.
Instead of that you are here complaining to us
that is of zero use, alas.
(No offense intended.)
Hearing what she was "explaining" you should have gone back, tell the students ewhat teh FACTS are about the rights of photography, you should have told them why you thought it could be an interesting photo at all, then you should have smiled taken another shot and walked off.
Instead of that you are here complaining to us
that is of zero use, alas.(No offense intended.)
degruyl
Just this guy, you know?
More likely several.
Public space, photography permitted? No expectation of privacy.
aniMal
Well-known
First - great shot! The kind a rude HCB might have produced
I definitely think that one should ignore all these people who seem intent on setting some new norm of absolute privacy even when in public. Myself I do not like having my picture taken, and I do not like imposing myself on others, I prefer to do it by stealth. But, that does not mean that I am not concerned with keeping the right to photograph in public places!
Some weeks ago I had a strange encounter. As I was fiddling with my Leicas, changing lenses or something, this guy walked up to me very angry. He scolded me for taking his picture, even though I had been looking down into the bag all the time!
What happened is that I exploded completely. I told him exactly what I thought of him, and in such an aggressive way that he eventually retreated, a little bewildered...
Come to think of it, he could very well have been looking at a chance to get closer to me, accuse me of taking his picture, then demanding some compensation - and grabbing one of my Leicas... I cannot think of any other reason, it was all quite strange. Or perhaps he really was a paranoid.
Anyway, in some of these cases I totally agree with bmattock that one sometimes have to take a stand. If anything the same would have happened with say a policeman, I would have been just as stubborn - but of course with a much more measured response...
And it is a paradox that people seem not to mind all the surveillance that is going on these days, but go totally bananas when a photographer is taking a scene with a wide, where they happen to be in the periphery of the shot. Law is law, and the ones who do not know what it says about the public domain I will not respect - merely inform and leave to say whatever they please.
I definitely think that one should ignore all these people who seem intent on setting some new norm of absolute privacy even when in public. Myself I do not like having my picture taken, and I do not like imposing myself on others, I prefer to do it by stealth. But, that does not mean that I am not concerned with keeping the right to photograph in public places!
Some weeks ago I had a strange encounter. As I was fiddling with my Leicas, changing lenses or something, this guy walked up to me very angry. He scolded me for taking his picture, even though I had been looking down into the bag all the time!
What happened is that I exploded completely. I told him exactly what I thought of him, and in such an aggressive way that he eventually retreated, a little bewildered...
Come to think of it, he could very well have been looking at a chance to get closer to me, accuse me of taking his picture, then demanding some compensation - and grabbing one of my Leicas... I cannot think of any other reason, it was all quite strange. Or perhaps he really was a paranoid.
Anyway, in some of these cases I totally agree with bmattock that one sometimes have to take a stand. If anything the same would have happened with say a policeman, I would have been just as stubborn - but of course with a much more measured response...
And it is a paradox that people seem not to mind all the surveillance that is going on these days, but go totally bananas when a photographer is taking a scene with a wide, where they happen to be in the periphery of the shot. Law is law, and the ones who do not know what it says about the public domain I will not respect - merely inform and leave to say whatever they please.
wgerrard
Veteran
We all certainly have a right to ask that our photo not be taken, in or out of public. How a photographer responds to that request is an individual choice that may or may not rise to the level of an ethics issue.
What many seem to assume, however, is that a bubble of legal privacy surrounds us while in a public space, making any photograph a privacy violation and requiring prior approval.
That's not true, of course, but judging from the anecdotal evidence posted at RFF, enough people believe it to fuel commonplace unfair and aggressive confrontations with photographers, or worse.
i think the proper response is to assert and defend our rights to take pictures. That does not mean being abusive towards someone who is abusing you. It does not mean trying to teach someone a lesson. That will only make someone who is already upset even angrier, and will not change their behavior.
Instead, raise the issue with the people who determine policy. For example, if a mall cop hassles you while parents are happily grabbing phone and p&s shots of their little cuties, don't expect the mall cop to care one way or the other. Even if he did, there's nothing he can do about it. Go to mall management. They might simply alter policy to permit p&s and phone cameras while banning DSLR's, but c'est la vie.
If you are shooting in a public space and someone asks you to stop, saying photography is not allowed, ask them to explain why their facility is exempt from the general understanding that photography in a public space is always permitted. if you disagree, again, go to management. In almost every situation, the people who tell you to stop did not, and cannot, set policy.
If someone, in private or in public, asks you to avoid taking their photo, then each of us needs to decide for ourselves how polite we want to be.
What many seem to assume, however, is that a bubble of legal privacy surrounds us while in a public space, making any photograph a privacy violation and requiring prior approval.
That's not true, of course, but judging from the anecdotal evidence posted at RFF, enough people believe it to fuel commonplace unfair and aggressive confrontations with photographers, or worse.
i think the proper response is to assert and defend our rights to take pictures. That does not mean being abusive towards someone who is abusing you. It does not mean trying to teach someone a lesson. That will only make someone who is already upset even angrier, and will not change their behavior.
Instead, raise the issue with the people who determine policy. For example, if a mall cop hassles you while parents are happily grabbing phone and p&s shots of their little cuties, don't expect the mall cop to care one way or the other. Even if he did, there's nothing he can do about it. Go to mall management. They might simply alter policy to permit p&s and phone cameras while banning DSLR's, but c'est la vie.
If you are shooting in a public space and someone asks you to stop, saying photography is not allowed, ask them to explain why their facility is exempt from the general understanding that photography in a public space is always permitted. if you disagree, again, go to management. In almost every situation, the people who tell you to stop did not, and cannot, set policy.
If someone, in private or in public, asks you to avoid taking their photo, then each of us needs to decide for ourselves how polite we want to be.
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Spider67
Well-known
Great photo! Apply Photographers ethics which means make the photo first.
Very often the same people who expect to be asked every time are the same one who don't like "posed" photos and prfer natural spontaneous snapshots. Idiosyncratic
Very often the same people who expect to be asked every time are the same one who don't like "posed" photos and prfer natural spontaneous snapshots. Idiosyncratic
dfoo
Well-known
It is a good shot. In that circumstance I think there is a) what you should do (tell her that she has no right to ask you not to shoot), and b) what you DO do (walk away). Don't worry, most people avoid confrontation and thats what keeps our world by and large civil. The only thing I don't like is that walking away you reinforce the teachers opinion that you don't have the right to shoot...
S
st3ph3nm
Guest
Yep, great shot.
I started a similar thread about a year back, from a similar experience on a beach. Unfortunately, unlike the OP, I didn't get a great photo from it all. What I did get, was permission to take more shots (but ran out of film before everyone - including myself - got properly comfortable). What I'd add to this discussion, though, is that I would have asked the teacher which school they were from, so that you could send them a print. Nothing, surely, sends the message better than showing the art teacher an example of art that she was involved in making.
Cheers,
Steve
I started a similar thread about a year back, from a similar experience on a beach. Unfortunately, unlike the OP, I didn't get a great photo from it all. What I did get, was permission to take more shots (but ran out of film before everyone - including myself - got properly comfortable). What I'd add to this discussion, though, is that I would have asked the teacher which school they were from, so that you could send them a print. Nothing, surely, sends the message better than showing the art teacher an example of art that she was involved in making.
Cheers,
Steve
pakeha
Well-known
sorry to say that from some experience the education system of,predominantly anglo- saxon countries is rife with people like this woman thinking she is a teacher. Her comments to the students[ who are most likely wider in experience than her] would have come across to the students as dumb, therefore not worthy of consideration or respect, hence she will not command respect and so she will be mediocre at best. It is not PC - PC is term so well overused it is now meaningless, this is stupidity - nothing less.
surfer dude
Well-known
First of all, thank you all those who have responded. There is a wide range of opinions which I have just reread and I believe all the opinions expressed here have validity.
On another day, I may well have entered into a discussion with the lady and explained what I was doing - I just wasn't in that frame of mind last Tuesday. The idea of finding out the name of the school and sending a print is especially good. I did pass her and the group later on elsewhere in the gallery and wish now I had talked it over with her. As it was, nothing was said. The lady was no doubt doing what she considered to be her job, although I think I agree that the students would have found her explanation pretty lame - I have two teenage sons who I know would have seen through that. However I think that entering into a discussion with people who object, politely and courteously, but firmly where it comes to your rights, is the preferred way to go in such situations.
Overall I'm glad I got the picture and was able to bring it up for discussion here, as I feel I've learned a lot from the responses. One thing I would say, though, is that those of us who do street/candid photography are operating in a different world environment than people in the past, and I have the sense that it will only get more restrictive for photographers. I hope that discussing things in this area, and being aware of our rights and responsibilities, will enable people like us (and rangefinders really are the best tool for the job aren't they) to keep recording the real world as we see it.
BTW, ZeissFan, I agree - my previous zenfolio signature could have led to some unfortunate presumptions so I have now changed it - thanks.
Anyway, my 50mm Summicron that I bought on eBay arrived today so it's all good!
On another day, I may well have entered into a discussion with the lady and explained what I was doing - I just wasn't in that frame of mind last Tuesday. The idea of finding out the name of the school and sending a print is especially good. I did pass her and the group later on elsewhere in the gallery and wish now I had talked it over with her. As it was, nothing was said. The lady was no doubt doing what she considered to be her job, although I think I agree that the students would have found her explanation pretty lame - I have two teenage sons who I know would have seen through that. However I think that entering into a discussion with people who object, politely and courteously, but firmly where it comes to your rights, is the preferred way to go in such situations.
Overall I'm glad I got the picture and was able to bring it up for discussion here, as I feel I've learned a lot from the responses. One thing I would say, though, is that those of us who do street/candid photography are operating in a different world environment than people in the past, and I have the sense that it will only get more restrictive for photographers. I hope that discussing things in this area, and being aware of our rights and responsibilities, will enable people like us (and rangefinders really are the best tool for the job aren't they) to keep recording the real world as we see it.
BTW, ZeissFan, I agree - my previous zenfolio signature could have led to some unfortunate presumptions so I have now changed it - thanks.
Anyway, my 50mm Summicron that I bought on eBay arrived today so it's all good!
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
some people (teacher in this case) feel compelled to say something even if stupid. Here it had nothing to do with the students. This was a control issue. Take the shot quickly, move on.
EDIT: I wouldnt get into explanations. You were within your ethical/legal boundries, nothing to explain.
EDIT: I wouldnt get into explanations. You were within your ethical/legal boundries, nothing to explain.
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MartinL
MartinL
I agree. Most jurisdictions specify what you can do with images, but do not prohibit actually taking them. Children are sometimes a special category but what's important is that the children here are not identifiable either individually or as part of their school (so they might be traced and identified.)The docent (probably not the teacher of record) is wrong. She overreacted, but no more so than many posters in this thread. It's a nice shot, but had she spoken up sooner, I'd just say OK. Big deal. A lost shot. I have 20 of those on a good afternoon.
Sometimes being politically correct, is. . .well, correct. Even foolish people deserve respect if the consequences are not large.