A Real Luftwaffen iiic-K?
- Thread starter Chemophilic
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David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
I've often wondered what they looked at when supplies of the blind fabric dried up.
There was a lot of research into airships and balloons in Europe in the 30's and I wondered about balloon fabric. What I've seen of the 1930's British and French* stuff should be investigated but I can't be bothered. I think I've samples somewhere I scrounged from Cardington but it was a long time ago...
Regards, David
* There was a joint Govt. project at some point in the 30's.
I've often wondered what they looked at when supplies of the blind fabric dried up.
There was a lot of research into airships and balloons in Europe in the 30's and I wondered about balloon fabric. What I've seen of the 1930's British and French* stuff should be investigated but I can't be bothered. I think I've samples somewhere I scrounged from Cardington but it was a long time ago...
Regards, David
* There was a joint Govt. project at some point in the 30's.
Sparrow
Veteran
... the fabric specification can be found in early editions of Wm Watsons Textile Design and Colour
The silk would probably be Chinese ... my IIIa shutter is a woven tape, and looks to be plain-weave at around 70ppi ... it would probably have been woven in Krefeld, but there were weavers in Lyon, and Como who could make such tapes
robert blu
quiet photographer
I'm always surprised how much detailed knowledge is available in this forum, great!
robert
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
They actually used black curtain material of German origin until mid 1939, and then switched to red Kodak (or former Kodak subsidiary Graflex, according to other sources) made curtains. The US embargoed Germany after the Battle of Britain, so Leitz switched back to a black German made curtain fabric when they ran out of the red ones in 1941. The red curtains actually held up well (better than some variations of their black curtains) and still are in many cameras from the period.
Sparrow
Veteran
... do you know if the post 1941 fabric was silk?
burancap
Veteran
If I had to place a wager ... repaint of either a paint or chrome unit. The grey seems off and the font too white. There looks to be overpainted wear surrounding the bottom plate screw. That wear looks like it would have worn through the paint if original. Then there is that cap. All IMHO, of course.
oltimer
Well-known
Jeff, did you also notice the left side of the bottom plate. This does not look like a rub, but a paint over were the plate was bubbling from the metal.
goamules
Well-known
I don't understand "free agent appraisers". I mean, why contact the person, if you aren't going to buy it, and aren't an expert, and cannot hold the camera? Just to get him spun up that it might be worth a few hundred dollars more than he thought? I see overpriced Leicas every day. Standard IIICs with Elmars, with $700 asking prices by clueless sellers. Buyers get ripped off all the time, probably 75% of the Leicas sold need more work and expense than was advertised. What's wrong with allowing one to slip by and be bought by some lucky buyer for a low price? People selling their grandparents possessions need to do their own research, and sell at their own risk. Now what happens if the camera is a blatant fake, but you coached the seller that it was "extremely valuable? I'll tell you what, some risk taking buyer get's burned - again. The "appraisal helper" goes on with his life, no fuss - no muss.
burninfilm
Well-known
I also believe that sellers should be responsible for doing their own research. I know it's easy to think you are doing someone a favor by offering some pricing advice, but if they are capable enough with computers and the internet to post an ad on Craigslist, then they are probably capable enough to do a bit of research before listing it. The fact that he apparently was asking for offers kind of points to the fact that he was aware of the value.
Of course, I'm the kind of person that would blame myself for not using due diligence in researching my merchandise, as opposed to blaming a customer for ripping me off. Hell, I've had people tell me I should price something much higher, just to find out that their pricing was insane. Live and learn.
enasniearth
Well-known
The shutter has to cocked to see the k stamp , it is hidden on the other curtain .
The camera is too good to be true , only an opinion .
The lenscap should be grey painted Bakelite , although perhaps this early
Not ,
Luftwaffen eigentum is always on the top of the case and the case is painted grey as well .
The curtains often are brittle from storage , although I would expect some wear to the paint , it really looks fresh here .
Maybe it is real or a repaint of an original .
Chemophilic
Established
I don't know if you are talking about me here, but I actually held the camera and I was ready to buy it. I knew enough to know that those markings (i.e. Fl#, K, etc) makes this camera special. I made the seller an offer about 1/6 of the final going price (it was a 4 digits figure) and he was ready to sell that to me, even after I explained why this camera was special.
However, I think it is wrong to take advantage of him. He did his research and knew that this worths some money and that's why he agreed to my offer, base on his eBay search. But he thought that it's a plain iiic, not knowing it's a iiic-k.
To me, it's better to benefit him than for me to score a screaming deal. I agreed to help him first verify this and contacted James Lager who verified that this is authentic. Whom he agreed to sell it to later was his decision.
Sure, people get ripped off and take advantage of each other every day, but not by me. I am not averse to good deal, but only if the seller knew exactly what he was selling (that's how I picked up a M4 for a song). 🙂
Luddite Frank
Well-known
Chemopihlic,
So Lager confirmed it as legit. Wow.
That, in and of itself must be pretty thrilling...
You're a good sport, helping your friend determine what he has.
😎
So Lager confirmed it as legit. Wow.
That, in and of itself must be pretty thrilling...
You're a good sport, helping your friend determine what he has.
😎
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
I am a bit surprised that the authenticity could be established within a mere three days of the original question...
Luddite Frank
Well-known
Why not, if the proper connections were made ?
We communicate at the speed of light these days... 😉
We communicate at the speed of light these days... 😉
news shooter
Established
Good to see
Good to see
Chemophilic,
+1 what Frank said. An honest man can be a little hard to find these days. Bravo to you!
Good to see
Chemophilic,
+1 what Frank said. An honest man can be a little hard to find these days. Bravo to you!
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Still amazing - in most cases even the shipping would take longer than that.
Dralowid
Michael
I enjoyed this, he listed as a fake...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171656696416?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Now I suppose that either means he was covering himself or he really didn't know. Hmmm.
OK so it is a low s/n but I think the knobs are wrong and not sure about the vulcanite, none the less the final price is high even by comparison with Westlicht.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171656696416?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Now I suppose that either means he was covering himself or he really didn't know. Hmmm.
OK so it is a low s/n but I think the knobs are wrong and not sure about the vulcanite, none the less the final price is high even by comparison with Westlicht.
Erik van Straten
Veteran
The vulcanite looks like a later type (late I and early II), the engraving of the serial number looks suspicious, "Elmar" should have been "Elmax", the dimple of the release button shouldn't be there and the back of the viewfinder should have been flat, but the rest of the camera looks original to me. Probably recently assembled from original parts.
Erik.
Dralowid
Michael
Hi Erik,
I may be wrong but I think the lens engraving is OK. This type of early engraving can be seen on Anastigmat, Elmax and Elmar. Here is a pic of my Elmar with a serial number close to the Ebay camera.
1-IMG_2219 by dralowid, on Flickr
I think the dimple in the shutter release is OK too. This was introduced (according to Laney) from 4,001 onwards. Mine unfortunately has had the release modernised so I can't show a picture.
Let me know if you think otherwise.
I agree about the vulcanite even though this is always hard to judge from small pictures. To be honest I think one needs to handle these early cameras and understand the patina and pattern of wear before making a judgement.
The pictures of the IIIcK that started this thread showed it to look immaculate and that always makes me suspicious. If it had looked more worn I wouldn't have commented, the 'K' cameras are not my field of interest. Pleased to hear it has been verified.
Michael
I may be wrong but I think the lens engraving is OK. This type of early engraving can be seen on Anastigmat, Elmax and Elmar. Here is a pic of my Elmar with a serial number close to the Ebay camera.
1-IMG_2219 by dralowid, on FlickrI think the dimple in the shutter release is OK too. This was introduced (according to Laney) from 4,001 onwards. Mine unfortunately has had the release modernised so I can't show a picture.
Let me know if you think otherwise.
I agree about the vulcanite even though this is always hard to judge from small pictures. To be honest I think one needs to handle these early cameras and understand the patina and pattern of wear before making a judgement.
The pictures of the IIIcK that started this thread showed it to look immaculate and that always makes me suspicious. If it had looked more worn I wouldn't have commented, the 'K' cameras are not my field of interest. Pleased to hear it has been verified.
Michael
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