Guth
Appreciative User
My apologies for starting a new thread separate from the one recently initiated by LCSmith. But as I have a sincere question regarding the topic of seeking feedback (or constructive criticism), I thought it worthy of starting a separate discussion.
In the other thread mentioned above, with regards to submissions made to the Gallery here on this forum, I noted my assumption that those of us who might be seeking out feedback or constructive criticism could select the option of "Rate My Photograph" to signify this. However, that post was seemingly swept away in the undertow of discussion taking place in the other thread.
The other assumption on my part has been that the majority of submissions made to the Gallery were done so simply with the intent of sharing one's images with others — not for the purpose of seeking out critiques from others. (Again, I came to feel this way because of the option to select the "Rate My Photograph" classification existed.) Now my curiosity has been raised to the level that I've started a new thread to find out what other RFF members think when it comes to this topic.
So trying this once more: Do members of this forum recognize images appearing in the Gallery where "Rate My Photograph" has been enabled, as those images where a critique is intentionally being sought? Or do most instead consider any submission made to the Gallery as fair game for critiquing? To put it a differently, if a person is seeking out constructive criticism of their images here on RFF, what is the best way to go about it?
In the other thread mentioned above, with regards to submissions made to the Gallery here on this forum, I noted my assumption that those of us who might be seeking out feedback or constructive criticism could select the option of "Rate My Photograph" to signify this. However, that post was seemingly swept away in the undertow of discussion taking place in the other thread.
The other assumption on my part has been that the majority of submissions made to the Gallery were done so simply with the intent of sharing one's images with others — not for the purpose of seeking out critiques from others. (Again, I came to feel this way because of the option to select the "Rate My Photograph" classification existed.) Now my curiosity has been raised to the level that I've started a new thread to find out what other RFF members think when it comes to this topic.
So trying this once more: Do members of this forum recognize images appearing in the Gallery where "Rate My Photograph" has been enabled, as those images where a critique is intentionally being sought? Or do most instead consider any submission made to the Gallery as fair game for critiquing? To put it a differently, if a person is seeking out constructive criticism of their images here on RFF, what is the best way to go about it?
nickthetasmaniac
Veteran
I don’t use the Gallery here (it’s never seemed to work for me) but as a general rule I only offer constructive critique if it has been requested by the poster. Whether that’s through a ‘Rate my photo’ check box or just adding ‘C/C welcome’ to the post...
I know that when I share my own work sometimes I’m actively seeking feedback (and will ask for it) but often I’m just sharing because it’s something I like or think the community may like. I certainly don’t want or appreciate feedback on everything all the time.
I know that when I share my own work sometimes I’m actively seeking feedback (and will ask for it) but often I’m just sharing because it’s something I like or think the community may like. I certainly don’t want or appreciate feedback on everything all the time.
twvancamp
Thom
Gave up on the other thread, but I do think it's a good point, Guth. When I post in the RFF gallery it is often just so I can link the image in a thread for some specific context (comparing a lens, asking about something on the negative, etc.). It's rare that I am specifically looking for feedback.
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
My personal ideas would probably mirror what I sense are those that Guth is proposing. In the interests of amicability, if someone wants advice or criticism of a photo they post, they can say so by using the “Rate my photograph” option. This means that they are open to hearing from others regardless of how much or how little those others know about photography. There is unfortunately no way to practically implement a button that says “Rate my photograph if you are actually a better photographer than I am”.
If opinions are not thus solicited, thoughtful viewers would be free to like or dislike those photos in their own mind, on their own time, and just shut up about it. (Although if we were serious about “making the world a better place”, even those photos might be granted a simple “I like it”, while those dying to say “I don’t like it”, could just suffer in silence.)
This way of doing things would be simple enough, though like most things involving humans, and every scheme which relies on the goodwill of others, it isn’t foolproof. The world of art criticism, along with many another area of civic life, has been afflicted with the poison of postmodern “critical thinking”, which is neither truly critical nor thinking. It’s just obscurantism, the kind of noise which adds nothing positive to any discussion. Some people are going to respond to photos in that vein, to stroke their own egos, other people will respond to a photo with unhelpful, off key comments simply because they don’t know as much about esthetics or photography as they think they do, and others might respond with comments which are truly helpful to the posting photographer’s goal of becoming a better photographer by listening to what others see in his photograph that he might have missed. If someone chooses to allow criticisms, he should be prepared to absorb all three kinds of responses, learn from the valid ones and just walk away from the others.
If someone doesn’t invite critical comments, people should have the maturity, self control and kindness to just leave it alone. It’s quite possible you are not as intelligent as you think you are, no use proving it to everybody with unsolicited advice about things you might not even understand. If, however, criticism is invited, then anyone can play.
Seems like a simple enough solution, following what I am taking to be Guth’s suggestion, though like everything which depends on people staying in their lane, it’s not foolproof, because there are always going to be those people who wake up in the morning whose main way of seeking self validation is making negative comments about the fruits of someone else’s labors. Beavis and Butthead get art degrees, that kind of thing.
If opinions are not thus solicited, thoughtful viewers would be free to like or dislike those photos in their own mind, on their own time, and just shut up about it. (Although if we were serious about “making the world a better place”, even those photos might be granted a simple “I like it”, while those dying to say “I don’t like it”, could just suffer in silence.)
This way of doing things would be simple enough, though like most things involving humans, and every scheme which relies on the goodwill of others, it isn’t foolproof. The world of art criticism, along with many another area of civic life, has been afflicted with the poison of postmodern “critical thinking”, which is neither truly critical nor thinking. It’s just obscurantism, the kind of noise which adds nothing positive to any discussion. Some people are going to respond to photos in that vein, to stroke their own egos, other people will respond to a photo with unhelpful, off key comments simply because they don’t know as much about esthetics or photography as they think they do, and others might respond with comments which are truly helpful to the posting photographer’s goal of becoming a better photographer by listening to what others see in his photograph that he might have missed. If someone chooses to allow criticisms, he should be prepared to absorb all three kinds of responses, learn from the valid ones and just walk away from the others.
If someone doesn’t invite critical comments, people should have the maturity, self control and kindness to just leave it alone. It’s quite possible you are not as intelligent as you think you are, no use proving it to everybody with unsolicited advice about things you might not even understand. If, however, criticism is invited, then anyone can play.
Seems like a simple enough solution, following what I am taking to be Guth’s suggestion, though like everything which depends on people staying in their lane, it’s not foolproof, because there are always going to be those people who wake up in the morning whose main way of seeking self validation is making negative comments about the fruits of someone else’s labors. Beavis and Butthead get art degrees, that kind of thing.
Bob Michaels
nobody special
Guth: I suggest developing a relationship, which may be virtual, with one individual that you have developed confidence in their ability to offer helpful critique. They need time to understand what you are trying to accomplish. You want to make sure you weed out those who do not have the knowledge base to actually help as well as those who will only offer consistent "attaboy"s. You will want your discussions to be private so they will have no hesitancy giving their honest opinion.
My personal view is that public opinion from responders that you know nothing about is slightly worse than neutral. They can have a tendency to narrow your view to that of group.
back alley
IMAGES
i like this idea...
Horatio
Masked photographer
I like the idea of having a virtual mentor or critic. To me that would be more valuable than having random internet viewers offer opinions.
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
The only way to become a better tennis player is to play people who are better than you are, not people who are worse, and not those with whom you are evenly matched. This is true for almost every endeavor which can be objectively judged. It’s mostly true for photography as well, if choosing a mentor, but with the understanding that, unlike tennis, the worth assigned to a photograph, by either one person or “everyone” is as much subjective as objective, if not more so. In the final analysis, all esthetic criticism in the world, no matter how wordy or descriptive, or exhaustively reasoned, comes down to private assertions of one thing: what I like. If only people were honest about it. Something which won’t be happening any time soon.
Craft and mechanics can be taught, but genius and “seeing” are a lot tougher, if not impossible. There are a few people on this forum whose output just gobsmacks me. I can see exactly what they are doing, can look at the photos and understand exactly what they have done with composition, the moment, light and shadow, motion and the clarity of frozen motion, yet I can’t go out and do the same thing no matter how much I would like to, even though I have the craft skills, because, in the moment, the situational instant I would need to trip the shutter, I just don’t see it. And I’ve been doing this a long time, taken the classes, looked at the books, gone to the galleries, rubbed shoulders with, bent the ears of, some great ones. Not likely happening for me, something I should accept, but don’t quite, still trying.
Neither Tolstoy, nor Dostoevsky, ever attended a writing workshop in his life. Teaching Art of any kind is capable of raising incompetent practitioners to mid level abilities, but that’s as far as it goes, even for the optimistic and the diligent.
With regard to the subject of this thread, I’d still go with the owner of the photo being the one to open it up to criticism if he chooses, and, otherwise, if criticisms not expressly solicited, just enjoy it or not enjoy it, but have the forbearance to leave it alone, and go on to the next one.
Craft and mechanics can be taught, but genius and “seeing” are a lot tougher, if not impossible. There are a few people on this forum whose output just gobsmacks me. I can see exactly what they are doing, can look at the photos and understand exactly what they have done with composition, the moment, light and shadow, motion and the clarity of frozen motion, yet I can’t go out and do the same thing no matter how much I would like to, even though I have the craft skills, because, in the moment, the situational instant I would need to trip the shutter, I just don’t see it. And I’ve been doing this a long time, taken the classes, looked at the books, gone to the galleries, rubbed shoulders with, bent the ears of, some great ones. Not likely happening for me, something I should accept, but don’t quite, still trying.
Neither Tolstoy, nor Dostoevsky, ever attended a writing workshop in his life. Teaching Art of any kind is capable of raising incompetent practitioners to mid level abilities, but that’s as far as it goes, even for the optimistic and the diligent.
With regard to the subject of this thread, I’d still go with the owner of the photo being the one to open it up to criticism if he chooses, and, otherwise, if criticisms not expressly solicited, just enjoy it or not enjoy it, but have the forbearance to leave it alone, and go on to the next one.
rhl-oregon
Cameras Guitars Wonders
Useful, sensible, practicable and even wise words in the posts above. Bob gets to the crux of it, I think, in developing a mentor, since a committee of opinions and suggestions will ultimately be useless. And Larry’s always elegant observations with their caveats and specified limitations can help one formulate personal terms of of what can be critiqued and what cannot.
There have been efforts over my 9 years here to create thread-based image critique, but they haven’t succeeded or endured. Why? Not enough robust participation, ultimately. Maybe not being well-enough designed in their structure and limits. And some of those members lost interest in RFF—I can think of at least one “mentor” who basically vanished soon after being installed and extolled! Others with the commensurate skills in critical communication have, alas, died (the irreplaceable Roger Hicks; Stewart/Sparrow who taught principles of design).
Among the established mentors here, Bill, I’d recommend consulting Chris Crawford if he’s will to look at a small portfolio. And though I don’t want to put Bob Michaels on the spot in this thread, *if* you’re doing any work that tells a story in a series of images, and especially if you’re making images for people who care about documentary life but aren’t postmodern academic careerist twits, Bob would be the go-to person.
Maybe RFF would benefit (why not?) from establishing a thread on the photography-related skills, experiences, credentials of its members—a resource for helping to figure out who might help one the most. In a different direction, Last month I made a proposal about the Street Photography Mentor role that the mentor would have freedom to to invite guest mentors (which, if the guests are chosen for their differing visions, offers a solution to the One Approach Does Not Define Photography conundrum above. Something like that could be done under the Salon/Critique/Projects rubric—its purpose being nothing more or less than how to make a better photograph—as long as someone has the savvy and determination to keep it going in an interesting way.
These are my thoughts while I keep my poor fire-ant bitten feet in a tub of water while waiting for the steroid injection to deal with my allergic reaction. I did get several good exposures for the bites, but I have to stop shooting in my Chacos. This is the third miserable episode since spring.
There have been efforts over my 9 years here to create thread-based image critique, but they haven’t succeeded or endured. Why? Not enough robust participation, ultimately. Maybe not being well-enough designed in their structure and limits. And some of those members lost interest in RFF—I can think of at least one “mentor” who basically vanished soon after being installed and extolled! Others with the commensurate skills in critical communication have, alas, died (the irreplaceable Roger Hicks; Stewart/Sparrow who taught principles of design).
Among the established mentors here, Bill, I’d recommend consulting Chris Crawford if he’s will to look at a small portfolio. And though I don’t want to put Bob Michaels on the spot in this thread, *if* you’re doing any work that tells a story in a series of images, and especially if you’re making images for people who care about documentary life but aren’t postmodern academic careerist twits, Bob would be the go-to person.
Maybe RFF would benefit (why not?) from establishing a thread on the photography-related skills, experiences, credentials of its members—a resource for helping to figure out who might help one the most. In a different direction, Last month I made a proposal about the Street Photography Mentor role that the mentor would have freedom to to invite guest mentors (which, if the guests are chosen for their differing visions, offers a solution to the One Approach Does Not Define Photography conundrum above. Something like that could be done under the Salon/Critique/Projects rubric—its purpose being nothing more or less than how to make a better photograph—as long as someone has the savvy and determination to keep it going in an interesting way.
These are my thoughts while I keep my poor fire-ant bitten feet in a tub of water while waiting for the steroid injection to deal with my allergic reaction. I did get several good exposures for the bites, but I have to stop shooting in my Chacos. This is the third miserable episode since spring.
farlymac
PF McFarland
I don't use the Gallery since the posting requirements mean I would have to maintain a separate database of images just for this Forum (though I did try that for a while). That said, when I'm looking for critique I will post to the Critique Forum from my Flickr feed. It can be very subjective, and sometimes one gets good advice. Sometimes.
PF
PF
D
Deleted member 65559
Guest
Guth
Appreciative User
Establishing a mentor does indeed seem like a great way to improve one's photography skills. However, I'm not confident that my commitment to my own photography is strong enough that I would be comfortable seeking out someone here on RFF to serve as a mentor. I say this as such a relationship is truly a two-way street in my opinion. The last thing I would want to do would be to waste someone else's time. In addition to possibly wasting their time, such a situation would likely only sour them on the thought of possibly sharing their knowledge with others in the future who might be better poised to take advantage of such an opportunity.
That said, perhaps as a result of reading this thread, someone else out there among us might decide to approach another photographer here on RFF with the intent of establishing a mentoring relationship such that it would indeed better their own photography. That would be pretty cool in my opinion. So I thank you Bob, not only for responding to my post, but also for offering up such thoughtful advice!
froyd
Veteran
If I am seeking constructive criticism on RFF I would create a post on the Critique/Salon forum.
When I post a picture on the gallery it is not to seek a critique although, if it is constructive and cordial, I'm happy to receive it.
When I post a picture on the gallery it is not to seek a critique although, if it is constructive and cordial, I'm happy to receive it.
Guth
Appreciative User
Robert, thanks for the thoughtful post. As I mentioned in my response to Bob above, I don't feel that I personally am at the point where I am ready to make the commitment I feel would be needed to work with a mentor.
That said, I originally joined RFF seeking out information that would help me sell my film camera and lenses as it had then been a decade since I had last used this gear. (I had largely abandoned my involvement with photography with the exception of taking the occasional snapshots with a digital point 'n shoot camera.) But then not long after spending some time here, instead of selling my film gear I began using it once again. These days I'm finding film photography in particular to be quite a rewarding pursuit and am now contemplating developing my black & white film on my own. A darkroom setup does not seem likely at this point, but I wouldn't totally rule it out. (I worked as a darkroom technician to earn money while I was in college so I do have some idea of what I would be getting myself into, lol.) This place has already had a positive influence when it comes to my own photography and it continues to do so provided I pay attention.
When I look at your photographs in particular, I realize that what one thing (among others) that I'm missing in my own photography is a good understanding of available light and how to best use it to my advantage. In my opinion, your images demonstrate a better grasp of this than anyone else here that I can think of. I own a few books that address this subject and there are no doubt countless resources available online. Those are the things that I should be investigating at this point, and perhaps I will soon enough. But I have a number of interests in life and I tend to bounce around between them all, never giving any one pursuit in particular the time and attention that it is deserving of. So it goes with my photography.
Therefore my expressed interest in possibly opening up some of my work to the larger community expressly with the intent to gain some feedback on a more short-term or perhaps a less-involved basis. While there is no guarantee that I would receive input from those whose own photography I admire, others might still have valid observations regarding my images that I could benefit from. (Those who never bother to share any of their own work, be it here on RFF or elsewhere, would simply be ignored for better or worse.)
Finally, I wish you the best of luck with your feet. I had more than enough encounters with fire ants than I care to remember back when I lived in Texas. The worst such incident occurred after spending a day floating down the river. I had applied ample amounts of sunscreen before heading out, but sadly I had forgotten to remove my shoes before doing so. I only discovered my error after it was too late. Upon returning home I needed to clean up some items before taking them inside. As the sun was blasting down on my feet (they were just too sore to put my shoes back on) I had sought out the shade of some nearby bushes. For the second time that day, I only discovered the error of my ways after it was too late. By the time I felt the 1st bite and bothered to look down I discovered that my feet were covered with fire ants. Talk about adding insult to injury. Those were a painful few days that followed. May your feet heal up well, sooner rather than later.
Guth
Appreciative User
This actually sounds like it might be what I am looking for at this stage of the game. Perhaps one of you could tell me a bit more about how this works. Thanks in advance!
Scrambler
Well-known
I haven't posted a pic for some time, but in the past found the weekly praise thread helpful: you see positive critique of a range of photos. Seeing what I want to achieve rather than hearing what is wrong I found helpful. Occasional praise (or gentle critique) in the gallery is also helpful. I'm sure the full hair shirt critique process would also be beneficial though I've never volunteered for that aspect.
Generally "no comment left" is the damning critique in the gallery. A few "not bad" remarks by people you don't know is vaguely promising. But "well done" by a member who shows consistently good photos is very encouraging: particularly if they say what has been done well. TBH I wouldn't regard a negative comment as any kind of guidance. No comment at all is harsher.
I see this site almost as 2 entities: the gallery with comments and the chat. Some elements cross the boundary. I would suggest the gallery is far more use than wordy critique, though thoughtful and guiding critique can be of use.
Generally "no comment left" is the damning critique in the gallery. A few "not bad" remarks by people you don't know is vaguely promising. But "well done" by a member who shows consistently good photos is very encouraging: particularly if they say what has been done well. TBH I wouldn't regard a negative comment as any kind of guidance. No comment at all is harsher.
I see this site almost as 2 entities: the gallery with comments and the chat. Some elements cross the boundary. I would suggest the gallery is far more use than wordy critique, though thoughtful and guiding critique can be of use.
robert blu
quiet photographer
I agree what Robert and Bob said earlier, having a mentor and being able to build a close relationship with him is for sure a great help in developing our photography.
Around the turn of the milennium for a few years I took part in various workshops with good photographers and it improved much my photography. Not the technicality but the language, the knowledge how to develop a project and how to work on it. The understanding of what I wanted to do with photography. The appropriate style for a certain project. More improvement than buying a new camera or a new lens ! It was an investiment in gtime and money but worthwhile!
Beside to find a mentor it is interesting as well to have a feedback from the photo we show or in a virtual gallery or in reality if we have the opportunity.
Of course we should always weight a little who is giving a comment and hope the comment is a little more than a simple "nice photo". After some time in RFF is easier to know each other and we can have an idea of the friend who is commenting.
Porrtfolio lectures are as well a good exercise, again is important to find a good lecturer.
When commenting a photo in the gallery I always try to explain what I like in the photo, it can be a unknown subject, a good use of the light or a perfect formal framing. I hope the photographers are not disturbed by this.
I do not feel the need to make comments on photos I do not understand because I have not the possibility to interact directly with the photogapher, sometimes a single photodoes not say so much but insertes in a body of work can have its meaning and value. This happens with my photos as well!
These are my thoughts about this interesting topic.
Around the turn of the milennium for a few years I took part in various workshops with good photographers and it improved much my photography. Not the technicality but the language, the knowledge how to develop a project and how to work on it. The understanding of what I wanted to do with photography. The appropriate style for a certain project. More improvement than buying a new camera or a new lens ! It was an investiment in gtime and money but worthwhile!
Beside to find a mentor it is interesting as well to have a feedback from the photo we show or in a virtual gallery or in reality if we have the opportunity.
Of course we should always weight a little who is giving a comment and hope the comment is a little more than a simple "nice photo". After some time in RFF is easier to know each other and we can have an idea of the friend who is commenting.
Porrtfolio lectures are as well a good exercise, again is important to find a good lecturer.
When commenting a photo in the gallery I always try to explain what I like in the photo, it can be a unknown subject, a good use of the light or a perfect formal framing. I hope the photographers are not disturbed by this.
I do not feel the need to make comments on photos I do not understand because I have not the possibility to interact directly with the photogapher, sometimes a single photodoes not say so much but insertes in a body of work can have its meaning and value. This happens with my photos as well!
These are my thoughts about this interesting topic.
Out to Lunch
Ventor
Why limit this to the Gallery? Whenever positing a picture in whatever thread, just add the invitation: ''Please critique my photo''. Cheers, OtL
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Good quality criticism and mentoring ain't free. Are you willing to hire someone?
This is the only way it might work and lasts for some time.
One thing is to post threads about sensors and manual focus, own pictures and odd gear reviews, another is actual work with someone else pictures.
As free alternative, forum rules could have clause. If photo is submitted with "rate my photo", then anyone could write anything they are capable off. Even something like "bad and distasteful".
This is the only way it might work and lasts for some time.
One thing is to post threads about sensors and manual focus, own pictures and odd gear reviews, another is actual work with someone else pictures.
As free alternative, forum rules could have clause. If photo is submitted with "rate my photo", then anyone could write anything they are capable off. Even something like "bad and distasteful".
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
This last sentence should probably be part of the conversation. There are many people on this forum who post thoughtful comments, but never post photos to the threads, or the gallery. In a photo forum all the verbal posts, no matter how thoughtful or informative, go nowhere towards informing other members who you are, as a photographer. It’s another case of a picture being worth a thousand words. If everyone posted more of their own photos, more often, it would go a long way towards making their critiques of another’s work more meaningful to that person, or, as Guth intimates, less meaningful. If someone offers either kudos or downvotes to your work here, that’s only really helpful if you know who they are, and if they haven’t been posting their own photos, and enough of them to delineate their “vision”, nobody really has any idea how they might be as a judge, or more specifically, “their” judge.
Obviously no one should feel compelled to post their photos if they don’t feel like it, but it does enter into the mentoring/critiquing discussion, I would think.