aizan
Veteran
here's a list from looking at ebay completed items:
zeiss ikon contessa
any canon or nicca leica screwmount camera
kodak retina iia, iiic, etc.
voigtlander vitessa
minolta 35 ii
ricoh 500
certo super dollina
yashica ee
zeiss ikon contessa
any canon or nicca leica screwmount camera
kodak retina iia, iiic, etc.
voigtlander vitessa
minolta 35 ii
ricoh 500
certo super dollina
yashica ee
Pioneer
Veteran
Wow, that is amazing. Digital for color. Film for Black and White. What is the problem with film for color? Or digital for black and white? I get a sense that neither of you find color photography very important.
I have seen stunning color photographs made on film, and equally amazing digital black & white.
To say digital is for color and film is for black and white is one of those pat answers that really means nothing. It really all depends on your own preferences and your own skill set.
I have seen stunning color photographs made on film, and equally amazing digital black & white.
To say digital is for color and film is for black and white is one of those pat answers that really means nothing. It really all depends on your own preferences and your own skill set.
traveler_101
American abroad
Wow, that is amazing. Digital for color. Film for Black and White. What is the problem with film for color? Or digital for black and white? I get a sense that neither of you find color photography very important.
I have seen stunning color photographs made on film, and equally amazing digital black & white.
To say digital is for color and film is for black and white is one of those pat answers that really means nothing. It really all depends on your own preferences and your own skill set.
Sure, you're right. Yes I do think increasingly of photography in terms of black and white. But the point in discussing this with the OP --or at least what I've been trying to say--is one must be realistic about costs. For developing your own (again--cost saving), the standard advice that I have read is starting with black and white and then moving to color; so that means now two sets of chemicals, it requires space in the apartment to store the extra containers needed for the chemicals. It may be difficult to get color developing chemicals; I couldn't find them here in Norway and bought them from Freestyle and brought them back here. The point is--yeah sure the sky's the limit, but not on a drastic budget.
nongfuspring
Well-known
He's an Aussie!!!
For a start it's not a rangefinder. Quality-wise it's basically an overpriced box of plastic with a slow scale focus lens. Some people really like them, personally I don't like touching them.
There's a lot of good advice you've been given here, it might help to first read the actual posts people have so generously typed for you.
se.la.dida
Member
Rollei 35, Olympus 35 RC, but save up for a bessa R
NEVER buy a YASHICA..
If you want CHEAP.. buy an Olympus xa
NEVER buy a YASHICA..
If you want CHEAP.. buy an Olympus xa
AlexMax
Established
Elcan KE-7, with Elcan 50mm f2
Cheap combo, you can find it in any flea market...
Now seriosly : prolly a Konica IIIa, a Topcon 35s, ...
Best,
Alex
Cheap combo, you can find it in any flea market...
Now seriosly : prolly a Konica IIIa, a Topcon 35s, ...
Best,
Alex
vau-ka
Newbie
Hi,
I was in a similar situation like you when I bought my first RF about 1/2 year ago and have used some models in the mean time, so this is my experience so far:
I have used the following cameras: Yashica Electro 35 GS and CC, Olympus XA and XA2, Canon P, Kiev 5 and Bessa L.
What's really nice about RF cameras is that you can really try out lots of different outfits and sell the ones you don't like, usually with no or very little loss, provided you don't buy non-working junk.
Out of these, I think for a beginner the Electro 35 GS is a good start: It has the look and feel of a real range finder, with a well-performing sharp lens (45mm/1.7) and should cost you around 50-100 $ (in Europe, dont know much about market prices in the US but I suspect they are lower). The 35cc is a little more expensive, it is smaller and has a wider lens (35mm/1.8) but the vf is smaller and does not have parralax correction.
Oly XA/XA2 don't look like serious cameras, but they are truly superb. I always carry one if I don't have another camera with me, fits right into your pocket. I recommend you picking up one of these no matter what else you are going to buy, if you are lucky it shouldn't cost you much (15-25 $).
The Bessa L, Kiev 5 and Canon P are interchangeable lens RF with LTM screw mout, which gives you access to myriads of different lenses, some of them (especially the Russian ones, and also cosina voigtländer) are really a bargain. The Canon P is a very fine, heavy, sturdy and elegant camera, without extras like light meter or so. It has a very good vf, should cost you about 100$.
The Kiev 5 is really cheap but quite hard to handle: for example, if you change shutter speeds without cocking the shutter first, you damage the camera, if you let the film rewind handle snap back instead of carefully putting it back into position, you damage the camera, etc., etc. If I compare the 1984 Kiev 5 to my 1959 Canon P, the P beats the Kiev in every regard, as far as I can tell (except for market price).
The Bessa costs you about 100 $, it comes without vf but with light meter behind the lens. It is the most conveniant body out of the three, if you just want to go out and shoot and not think too much about the camera, settings, etc. I recommend this one, especially in combination with the awesome cosina voigtländer 25mm f/4, which is surprisingly cheap. I got both camera and lens for 200 EUR last week
Every one here surely has their own favourite, so try out different outfits, sell what you dont like and find your personal favourite. Good luck!
I was in a similar situation like you when I bought my first RF about 1/2 year ago and have used some models in the mean time, so this is my experience so far:
I have used the following cameras: Yashica Electro 35 GS and CC, Olympus XA and XA2, Canon P, Kiev 5 and Bessa L.
What's really nice about RF cameras is that you can really try out lots of different outfits and sell the ones you don't like, usually with no or very little loss, provided you don't buy non-working junk.
Out of these, I think for a beginner the Electro 35 GS is a good start: It has the look and feel of a real range finder, with a well-performing sharp lens (45mm/1.7) and should cost you around 50-100 $ (in Europe, dont know much about market prices in the US but I suspect they are lower). The 35cc is a little more expensive, it is smaller and has a wider lens (35mm/1.8) but the vf is smaller and does not have parralax correction.
Oly XA/XA2 don't look like serious cameras, but they are truly superb. I always carry one if I don't have another camera with me, fits right into your pocket. I recommend you picking up one of these no matter what else you are going to buy, if you are lucky it shouldn't cost you much (15-25 $).
The Bessa L, Kiev 5 and Canon P are interchangeable lens RF with LTM screw mout, which gives you access to myriads of different lenses, some of them (especially the Russian ones, and also cosina voigtländer) are really a bargain. The Canon P is a very fine, heavy, sturdy and elegant camera, without extras like light meter or so. It has a very good vf, should cost you about 100$.
The Kiev 5 is really cheap but quite hard to handle: for example, if you change shutter speeds without cocking the shutter first, you damage the camera, if you let the film rewind handle snap back instead of carefully putting it back into position, you damage the camera, etc., etc. If I compare the 1984 Kiev 5 to my 1959 Canon P, the P beats the Kiev in every regard, as far as I can tell (except for market price).
The Bessa costs you about 100 $, it comes without vf but with light meter behind the lens. It is the most conveniant body out of the three, if you just want to go out and shoot and not think too much about the camera, settings, etc. I recommend this one, especially in combination with the awesome cosina voigtländer 25mm f/4, which is surprisingly cheap. I got both camera and lens for 200 EUR last week
Every one here surely has their own favourite, so try out different outfits, sell what you dont like and find your personal favourite. Good luck!
Clark.EE
Well-known
Canon QL17/19.
Yashica Electro GX, CC.
Olympus 35's.
For me, its got to have Meter & be small.
Yashica Electro GX, CC.
Olympus 35's.
For me, its got to have Meter & be small.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
The problem with this thread and the main question is that excellence is wanted and the budget is fairly low. That doesn't mean it can't be done but a bit of luck and a lot of research into the actual camera is needed.
I'd spend my money on one of the FED/Zorki 1's with the basic or Jupiter-8 lens and have the body checked and so on by Oleg. That might just scrape into the budget limit with a bit of luck and carefully choosing. I doubt if one would be found that didn't need Oleg's magic and so I'd say go for the cheapest to buy and then get it checked etc. Both the FED and Zorki 1's are like the earlier 1930's Leicas to handle and use once they've been fettled properly but don't cost anything like a Leica II would.
There's also the FED 2 and Jupiter 8 outfit and it's a great improvement on the FED 1 and a greatly loved but dirt cheap camera and lens on this forum. BTW, you could probably get a decent Leningrad 4 or 8 meter to go with it and be within the budget with luck.
There's also the Kiev range and many like them, especially without the meters, but they can be tricky to get repaired if they fail. They don't very often and, again, there's the great Jupiter-8 lens for them.
All the ex-USSR cameras work well with the universal view-finder from the old USSR. It's based on the Carl Zeiss one and is recommended by many.
Canon and Olympus make a range of RF's with fixed lenses and there's a wide choice available. If anything they suffer from decaying, sticky messy light seals. These can be replaced if you are prepared to take a couple of days removing the mess with various nasty liquids. Some dealers sell them refurbished and, if not, most repairers can tackle them and demonstrate what nice cameras they are. A little research is needed to sort out the exact models and especially the battery supply position. Older ones needing mercury batteries need work done on them by an electronics specialist or else battery converters and so on.
The Olympus XA has been recommended by many and I'll add my name to the list but add that the RF can be fragile. The XA2 is often mentioned but is not a RF but zone focussed. It's a great camera but not what's being asked for.
There's another way of getting the RF experience; buy a scale focussing camera like the Olympus Trip 35 and add a range-finder (the accessory variety) to it. The results will be far better than expected. I mention it as I've noticed the price of the Trip 35 has dropped and accessory RF's can't be given away some days on ebay.
Film can be cheap and it can be dear. The trick is to look around in shops etc and buy it when cheap and put it in the fridge. I've paid pennies for Kodak colour and B&W film* because large dealers have decided to stop stocking some of the range and ebay is full of bargains. BTW I always buy it before the use by date but few believe me. Processing can be cheap if you find somewhere that will process and scan only...
Regards, David
PS Some examples of silly prices I've paid; a FED 2 for US $5, an Industar lens for 49p (that's proper UK pennies), a Jupiter 8 for UKP 5 an Olympus XA for UK3-50 and a Canon RF for UKP10. It's out there but you need to find it.
* Recently in Boots in the UK.
The problem with this thread and the main question is that excellence is wanted and the budget is fairly low. That doesn't mean it can't be done but a bit of luck and a lot of research into the actual camera is needed.
I'd spend my money on one of the FED/Zorki 1's with the basic or Jupiter-8 lens and have the body checked and so on by Oleg. That might just scrape into the budget limit with a bit of luck and carefully choosing. I doubt if one would be found that didn't need Oleg's magic and so I'd say go for the cheapest to buy and then get it checked etc. Both the FED and Zorki 1's are like the earlier 1930's Leicas to handle and use once they've been fettled properly but don't cost anything like a Leica II would.
There's also the FED 2 and Jupiter 8 outfit and it's a great improvement on the FED 1 and a greatly loved but dirt cheap camera and lens on this forum. BTW, you could probably get a decent Leningrad 4 or 8 meter to go with it and be within the budget with luck.
There's also the Kiev range and many like them, especially without the meters, but they can be tricky to get repaired if they fail. They don't very often and, again, there's the great Jupiter-8 lens for them.
All the ex-USSR cameras work well with the universal view-finder from the old USSR. It's based on the Carl Zeiss one and is recommended by many.
Canon and Olympus make a range of RF's with fixed lenses and there's a wide choice available. If anything they suffer from decaying, sticky messy light seals. These can be replaced if you are prepared to take a couple of days removing the mess with various nasty liquids. Some dealers sell them refurbished and, if not, most repairers can tackle them and demonstrate what nice cameras they are. A little research is needed to sort out the exact models and especially the battery supply position. Older ones needing mercury batteries need work done on them by an electronics specialist or else battery converters and so on.
The Olympus XA has been recommended by many and I'll add my name to the list but add that the RF can be fragile. The XA2 is often mentioned but is not a RF but zone focussed. It's a great camera but not what's being asked for.
There's another way of getting the RF experience; buy a scale focussing camera like the Olympus Trip 35 and add a range-finder (the accessory variety) to it. The results will be far better than expected. I mention it as I've noticed the price of the Trip 35 has dropped and accessory RF's can't be given away some days on ebay.
Film can be cheap and it can be dear. The trick is to look around in shops etc and buy it when cheap and put it in the fridge. I've paid pennies for Kodak colour and B&W film* because large dealers have decided to stop stocking some of the range and ebay is full of bargains. BTW I always buy it before the use by date but few believe me. Processing can be cheap if you find somewhere that will process and scan only...
Regards, David
PS Some examples of silly prices I've paid; a FED 2 for US $5, an Industar lens for 49p (that's proper UK pennies), a Jupiter 8 for UKP 5 an Olympus XA for UK3-50 and a Canon RF for UKP10. It's out there but you need to find it.
* Recently in Boots in the UK.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
http://www.okvintagecamera.com/fed.php
Just filling in one of the blanks for someone new on this forum - who may not be familiar with Oleg.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Ooops, yes you're right; I should have put in a cross reference to Oleg's site. I forget we are not all time-served, dyed in the wool, posters at times...
Regards, David
Lucadomi
Well-known
I agree with the comments regard scanning. You can have very frustrating results unless you use a nice dedicated film scanner ( in particular with color film).
For a small rangefinder, I think the Contax T is very portable and has a great lens (but it fall in the $300 range). The Olympus XA is a fun camera and you can get great results.
Or get a Diacord and try Medium Format, that would make you enjoy working with a film camera.
But I see that I am going too far away from you original question.
For a small rangefinder, I think the Contax T is very portable and has a great lens (but it fall in the $300 range). The Olympus XA is a fun camera and you can get great results.
Or get a Diacord and try Medium Format, that would make you enjoy working with a film camera.
But I see that I am going too far away from you original question.
Fixcinater
Never enough smoky peat
I have had a FED 3b (flat top) with Industar-61 lens, just got a FED 5c to try out the Industar-61LD (special glass used in the last version of the I-61). I would not say that their build quality equals anything Japanese I have touched. The Kievs may be different (I have a 4M + Helios-103 in the mail to me, so I'll know more shortly) but the FEDs have left me flat.
I had a FED 1 NKVD and the build quality was better but I would not want to use it as a camera with so many other options available. The VF was terribly small and dim, and my using glasses made it worse.
For $100, I'd suggest a Canonet QL17 (small, later version). For me, their fit/finish is better than the Yashica, they are new enough that they are more likely to be fully working/easily repairable than maybe some of the old Kodaks.
If you can stretch to $150-200, you could get a Canon rangefinder like the P, or 7, and a cheap lens. $100 for the body and $50 for a decent copy of Jupiter-8 and you would have a nice combo with better IQ than the Canonet.
David Hughes
David Hughes
A photo taken/grabbed with a Zorki I and an Industar-22 lens some years ago. Exposure by guess work...
I hope it shows what a cheap range finder can do but beware as most of them on the market are second-hand and about 65 years old. Luckily getting the expert (Oleg) to sort it out is also dirt cheap and you get back a camera that's a joy to use.
FWIW, I've several Leicas dating from 1926 to a few years ago and I'm as happy working with the FED/Zorki 1's and FED 2 as I am with any of the Leicas. And if you've ever had a Leica repaired you'll appreciate Oleg a lot more...
Regards, David
I hope it shows what a cheap range finder can do but beware as most of them on the market are second-hand and about 65 years old. Luckily getting the expert (Oleg) to sort it out is also dirt cheap and you get back a camera that's a joy to use.
FWIW, I've several Leicas dating from 1926 to a few years ago and I'm as happy working with the FED/Zorki 1's and FED 2 as I am with any of the Leicas. And if you've ever had a Leica repaired you'll appreciate Oleg a lot more...
Regards, David
marcr1230
Well-known
read this, then go buy a Leica MP and lens:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepa...her/2014/01/top-classic-letter-to-george.html
http://theonlinephotographer.typepa...her/2014/01/top-classic-letter-to-george.html
abo_1970
Member
My 2 cents as a total amateur?
Start cheap and work your way up!
Buy a decent second hand film camera, regardless of if it is a rangefinder or SLR or TLR. Feel how it handles, if you like the camera and if you like the results... If you don't like it sell it for a good price and move on... By that time you might have saved a bit to move to the next level and also to have saved up for chemicals and tools to do your own development... If you find out you like doing your own development... Because in the end you maybe figure out you like the convenience of just digital...
Buying your first analog camera is not an end point... It is a starting point with potentially lots of disappointments and frustrations until you find YOUR camera! And to me it doesn't matter if it's a rangefinder, slr or tlr... But would be nice if you shoot film from time to time!
For my own personal situation... At the moment i have a Fuji X100, a Rollei 35SE and a Yashica Mat124G... And for my 2 film cameras I have all the tools and chemicals in house to do my own development and have the process written down, but after more than half a year I am still scared ****less to process my own film! But that probably has to do more with me than the average film shooter...
Start cheap and work your way up!
Buy a decent second hand film camera, regardless of if it is a rangefinder or SLR or TLR. Feel how it handles, if you like the camera and if you like the results... If you don't like it sell it for a good price and move on... By that time you might have saved a bit to move to the next level and also to have saved up for chemicals and tools to do your own development... If you find out you like doing your own development... Because in the end you maybe figure out you like the convenience of just digital...
Buying your first analog camera is not an end point... It is a starting point with potentially lots of disappointments and frustrations until you find YOUR camera! And to me it doesn't matter if it's a rangefinder, slr or tlr... But would be nice if you shoot film from time to time!
For my own personal situation... At the moment i have a Fuji X100, a Rollei 35SE and a Yashica Mat124G... And for my 2 film cameras I have all the tools and chemicals in house to do my own development and have the process written down, but after more than half a year I am still scared ****less to process my own film! But that probably has to do more with me than the average film shooter...
shortstop
Well-known
100$? Kodak Retina IIIC you can find at 150$, wonderful lens, very good meter. Be sure the viewfinder is transparent! Often they are dim.
If you want a RF with changing lenses the cost rises too much. The feeling of retina is absolutely german.
If you want a RF with changing lenses the cost rises too much. The feeling of retina is absolutely german.
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Thanks for posting the Micheal Johnson online photographer post - whose point was "Sometimes, economizing isn't."
Now back to David's superb example of a photo taken of a truck hauler with a locomotive and a counter-point to Johnson's essay.
Who can tell whether the above photo was taken with a Nikon, Canon or David's Zorki 1?
There isn't much of a difference in the final images that I can tell between my Leica II with a 50/3.5 Elmar and those taken with a Zorki 1 / Industar 22? - (other than the film in my Leica tends ride somewhat low in relation to the film gate, so that the exposure includes a portion of the sprocket holes.)
Now back to David's superb example of a photo taken of a truck hauler with a locomotive and a counter-point to Johnson's essay.
Who can tell whether the above photo was taken with a Nikon, Canon or David's Zorki 1?
There isn't much of a difference in the final images that I can tell between my Leica II with a 50/3.5 Elmar and those taken with a Zorki 1 / Industar 22? - (other than the film in my Leica tends ride somewhat low in relation to the film gate, so that the exposure includes a portion of the sprocket holes.)
David Hughes
David Hughes
Thanks, I was lucky in that I drove into the car park as the loco was being loaded on to the truck. The best bit was when they did a three point turn in the car park with the truck and drove off but it was impossible to get on film as I'd like it. At times the clearance between the truck and parked cars was just inches.
I wrote something about the cassette sizes a while ago and the film positioning. From memory the modern cassette is 3 or 4 mm smaller than the FILCA but a bit of padding does the trick.
Regards, David