A thread thread...

[Malcolm M]

Enlargers- universally in my experience although I’ve never used large format- use the 39mm Leica thread lens mounting. So, what did people do before the Leica? Did they just accumulate negatives, hoping that someone in the future would invent a device to make prints (contacts aside), did enlargers have some other mount, or was the 39mm thread not original to Leica?

 

[randy stewart]

I think Schneider popularized the 25mm threaded mount before it was largely replaced by the 39mm threaded mount in the 1970s. The ;larger diameter mount allowed for faster lenses. Larger format enlargers often take generic lens boards drilled out to the size needs of larger lenses, which are usually held to the board by a jam nut - a threaded ring screwed to the backside of the lens to lock it to the board, Why the move to a Leica thread compatible standard? Beats me, as Leica has never been a big player in enlarging lenses beyond the needs of the few enlargers they made.

 

[Malcolm M]

The Leica thread on enlargers long predates the seventies. Gnome enlargers are advertised in the 1953 Photography Yearbook as having a "Leica flange."

 

[kangaroo2012]

Oscar Barnack invented the vertical enlarger for his 35mm film.
Originally a box with a lamp it was called FILES in 1926 and was capable of various enlargements from 2.5x to 8x.
Prior to this enlargers were horizontal and used oil or gas for illumination.
See Dennis Laney for more details.
Cheers
Philip

 

[kangaroo2012]

To folow on, Leica Elmar camera lenses were used in the enlarger and they had 39mm thread. Progress was rapid and Valoy, Focomats and the V35 were progressively marketed.
Projectors were in use before enlargers but users wanted prints.
My Omega 4x5 enlarger uses 39mm thread lenses in a larger plate.
Philip

 

[Scrambler]

Before the Leica enlargement was unusual. Negatives were contact printed. It's why serious cameras before the Leica were huge. You can find cameras the size of cars in order to make large prints.

The 39mm thread was so you could load in your Elmar and enlarge away. Two lenses would have been too expensive.

"The enlarger is threaded with a standard lens opening, allowing the Leica owner to use his own lens." Leica Manual, 1951, referring to the Focomat Ic.

Before Leica there were enlargers but they looked and functioned like reversed cameras- they were used horizontally like a slide projector.

120 format was originally contact printed. It was a kiddies format, like a 1megapixel camera today. Once enlargement became common, 120 became professional. You find the transition from the 20s and it was complete by the 50s. The Focomat IIc is ready to enlarge it, with lenses corrected for the near focus already fitted.

Edit: I see others have commented while I dug up my Leica Manual. 🙂

 

[David Hughes]

And many people put the negative/plate back into the camera and opened the lens. Then they shone sunlight*, gaslight and so on through the negative/plate to project it on to a bromide paper.

Kodak also made specific enlargers for their cameras. Look on eBay and search for Kodak VPK or Vest and you'll usually see lots of them for the VPK.

They called them cameras and not enlargers in those days.

Regards, David

* They blanked out windows except for a hole to light the back of the camera and used mirrors to get the sun on to it.

 

[CharlesDAMorgan]

Yes - a 92 year old choir member who I used to drive there told me his father had a folding camera and also used it as an enlarger in reverse.

 

[David Hughes]

Here's how they did it:-

This is from a very early Kodak book, about the time of the Great War; these books are easy to find and give a fascinating insight into the history of our hobby.


Regards, David

 

[Malcolm M]

The Wellington Photographic Handbook (17th edition) (undated- guesstimate 1922) shows inter alia a very similar arrangement to David Hughes' post above. Under "Enlarging with a Lantern" "In a third form of enlarger the lens points downwards towards a table on which the Bromide paper is placed...." which sounds like the sort of enlarger we all know and love.
But it doesn't bring us any closer to the question of how come the Leica (camera) thread came to be almost universal on enlargers.
Maybe I should stop inflicting my random musings on RFF members.

 

[Scrambler]

I feel a little like there's a reluctance to consider what has already been said, Malcolm.

Enlargers existed before Leicas: but they didn't have interchangable lenses. Well, no more interchangeable than a standard shuttered lens, which is a nuisance to move and requires access to both sides of the lens.

The Leica introduced a format for interchangable lenses that only required access to one side.

From the mid-20s to the mid-30s there weren't too many other 35mm lens standards.

And Leica was making enlargers. And enlarger lenses. So there were lenses for other companies to build enlargers for, and enlargers for other companies to make lenses for. And a simple threaded standard.

I think it's just been that early momentum.

I'd be interested to know if Zeiss made enlargers for Contax lenses. That would be the competition near the start.

 

[wes loder]

My enlarger came with Schneider enlarging lenses (25mm thread). I promptly bought an El-Nikkor, which came in 39mm thread and bought the lens board to use it. Still have the Schneider lenses somewhere.

 

[David Hughes]

Leica introduced 35mm film and negatives as we know them and also enlargers as we know them, the "FILES" and "FILOY" f'instance. As Leitz made a camera with lenses and a lens "socket" in the 39mm thread size it would make sense to use that and even the camera lenses, although I expect they made the special enlarger lenses without compound lenses as the heat from the bulb might melt the balsam.

And as the Leica camera gained popularity other lens makers made lenses for it and even modified early ones to take interchangeable lenses. So it would make sense to stick to one standard size.

(Edit) I've just found an advert for the Focomat in a 1939 magazine. It says "Complete with ...and flange for Leica lens". But it also say that "many enthusiasts prefer to keep their Elmar or Summar in (sic) the camera and use ..the Varob lens always ready for action".

These old magazines are a valuable source of information but few seem to collect them, even though they often go for pennies on ebay. I've a heap of them going back to1914 and it's amazing what has changed and what hasn't.


Regards, David

 

[David Hughes]

...I'd be interested to know if Zeiss made enlargers for Contax lenses. That would be the competition near the start.

I've an elderly (1937) catalogue of "Contax Photography" but it covers all their "miniature" cameras and so confuses the issue.

They made a "fixed focus" enlarger for film sizes, cheap at 30/- it had a fixed lens and looked like the Kodak ones I mentioned.

There was a posher one looking as we know them and for various film sizes; "in each case the actual camera lens is used...". They also sold adapters for each lens and negative carriers for various film sizes. The posh enlarger cost about twenty pounds.


Regards, David

 

[Malcolm M]

From an advert for “Praxidos” Famous Vertical Enlargers in the 1938 Photography Year Book.
Most designs came supplied with a lens (mount unspecified) but you could choose No 498 Without lens… for use with Leica lens f/3.5 5 cm focus at £12/15/0, or No 499 Without lens… for use with Contax lens 5 cm focus at £13/10/0.
It doesn’t explain why Contax users had to fork out an extra 15 bob.

 

[David Hughes]

From an advert for “Praxidos” Famous Vertical Enlargers in the 1938 Photography Year Book.
Most designs came supplied with a lens (mount unspecified) but you could choose No 498 Without lens… for use with Leica lens f/3.5 5 cm focus at £12/15/0, or No 499 Without lens… for use with Contax lens 5 cm focus at £13/10/0.
It doesn’t explain why Contax users had to fork out an extra 15 bob.

I expect because people were daft enough to pay it is part of the answer.

The same thing happens on websites today; slip on filters, lens caps and lens hoods are always/mostly dearer in 36 mm because they fit Leicas...

Regards, David

 

[relistan]

The same thing happens on websites today; slip on filters, lens caps and lens hoods are always/mostly dearer in 36 mm because they fit Leicas...

I suspect in this case it's because the Contax mount is a lot more complicated than a threaded hole or a hole with a threaded ring.

 

[titrisol]

Cameras were used as enlargers as well.
My grandfather had an attachment for his Verascope form the 1910s
It was more like a big wooden pyramid where the paper was placed at the bottom and the camera on top with a lightbulb.
It only made prints of 20x20cm from a single exposure of the stereo pair (40x40mm)

Before the Leica enlargement was unusual. Negatives were contact printed. It's why serious cameras before the Leica were huge. You can find cameras the size of cars in order to make large prints.

The 39mm thread was so you could load in your Elmar and enlarge away. Two lenses would have been too expensive.

"The enlarger is threaded with a standard lens opening, allowing the Leica owner to use his own lens." Leica Manual, 1951, referring to the Focomat Ic.

Before Leica there were enlargers but they looked and functioned like reversed cameras- they were used horizontally like a slide projector.

120 format was originally contact printed. It was a kiddies format, like a 1megapixel camera today. Once enlargement became common, 120 became professional. You find the transition from the 20s and it was complete by the 50s. The Focomat IIc is ready to enlarge it, with lenses corrected for the near focus already fitted.

Edit: I see others have commented while I dug up my Leica Manual. 🙂

 

[jgrainger]

I've a mix of 25mm and 39mm.. I think some other lens standards have been offered - one of the 50's Durst models could be bought to take Contax lenses (though the brochure doesn't specify whether M42 or RF mount). There are some larger thread mounts, such as used for certain Fujinon EX lenses.