Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
You moved too far south Al. I lived in Smyrna in the mid 80's & had to finally come back north. Here in Lexington we have the ketchup base but those toward the east like the vinegar base. I like both.
Actually, I like all of it. Just jonesing for the Tejas stuff. My problem with the local stuff is they use wimpy yellow mustards instead of the more spicy ones. The hot down here is barely medium. And that includes buffalo wings, mexican food and asian food.
Might as well have stayed in Delaware...
gavinlg
Veteran
Harvesting the grains that keeps vegans fed kills more animals than they'd like to admit. There's no way to live without impact to other beings. That's life sonny.
benlees
Well-known
"Cut worm forgives the plow". A smaller sacrifice can lead to greater good.
The vegan would respond a field of grain can feed a lot more people than can a cow, pig, or other beast.
A vegan would also agree there is some impact to other beings. Their goal is to minimize it.
bensyverson
Well-known
Digital cameras, printers, computers and memory cards are made with petroleum-based polymers, assembled by low-wage laborers in China under coal-powered lights, and become toxic e-waste after about five years. So there's nothing clean about digital technology.
I think you could make a very convincing argument that a Leica M3 has a lower environmental footprint. The camera itself in an heirloom that lasts for decades, is non-toxic and highly recyclable. Photographic film uses animal byproducts, and chemistry is mildly toxic, but arguably has much less impact on the animal kingdom than the huge number of independent industrial operations that make digital photography possible.
Not trying to turn this into a film vs digital debate, but I think any vegan should make a realistic and holistic assessment of the products they depend upon. It may often be the case that the item which contains animal products is actually less harmful to animals than its alternative.
Exdsc
Well-known
The problem is that when you don't harvest animals that eat grain, there will not be any grain left for them, let alone our vegans.
zerobuttons
Well-known
Not to mention dog bisquits.....
sanmich
Veteran
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Buddhists do eat meat
I do agree with your premise that being concerned for the suffering of other beings is an admirable concern. However, that doesn't mean I can't make some fun at the expense of vegans.
To be honest, I don't understand vegans. I understand and respect vegetarians, but vegans.... Well, I don't understand why you can't use the remains of already dead animals but go to your job by car - the influence of automotive traffic on the habitat of animals is huge!
These responses are really interesting. Thanks for giving me a chance to say a little more.
My post expressed admiration, and gave links to a simple, time-tested practice for enhancing one's ability to shoulder the suffering of others.
It said nothing about whether or not Buddhists eat meat or kill or whatever. It also made no comment about film, and certainly did not engage in the discussions around the hypothetical ban of it.
It's a globalizing world; there are far too many different value systems to expect consensus without repression. We need, in my opinion, to learn how to express admiration for values held by others with which we may agree in part, yet do not wish to be compelled to accept.
The other thing that we need to do is to learn how to engage discussions about ethics without looking at them through the filter of THE LAW. Most of the people posting here respond, positively or derisively as the case may be, out of the assumption that there is/ought be a rule for conduct that should/must apply to self and others.
I think many of us are looking for some reassurance, some validation that we are not to blame. Let us try to shift the discussion from the assignation of guilt to the assumption of responsibility.
Becoming responsible doesn't mean that we are guilty, it just means that we take it upon ourselves to respond to things in our world just as if they were our own. Response-ability grows with time and practice. We need to encourage each other and ourselves, and also to give each other a little slack.
Becoming responsible is also not simply a personal individual task, but a collective one. Especially, we need to develop *collective* models of positive refusal that are not monopolized by one state, corporation, church, party, or organization. Most issues, such as animal husbandry for instance, have become far too complicated for individuals to acquire all the information needed to make decisions. As a result, we need to share that burden collectively, through the general intellect and the hive consciousness.
BTW, I am a serious Buddhist practitioner and I occasionally and regularly eat meat. When I consume any food, I say a few lines that help me remember what kinship and interconnectedness are all about, and when I consume meat in particular, I say a few extra words that ask for blessings to be extended to all those who cared for and prepared the animals. Like Roger, I always prefer to buy free range/organic/small farm, etc. For those who insist upon having a rule yet do not want to be vegetarian, I would refer them to Thomas Jefferson's advice that meat should be used as a condiment. To forego all animal products altogether is, I think, the best, and I admire people who do that.
I too was shocked when I first found out about gelatin use in film about two years ago, and it did play a role in my decision to leave film, but I have no illusions that turning to digital somehow means the impact has been eliminated.
Contarama
Well-known
Well when they start using processed sugar and complex hydrocarborates or whatever then I am out. LOL
Meat + fire = BBQ built the modern human...brain included or not. And cancer and heart disease among other things.
70% of the people in the world are dangerous...the other 45% are idiots.
Meat + fire = BBQ built the modern human...brain included or not. And cancer and heart disease among other things.
70% of the people in the world are dangerous...the other 45% are idiots.
benlees
Well-known
Cows don't eat grain. They eat grass. We feed 'em grain (corn) because it is dirt cheap and fattens them up for market. This apparently reduces the quality of the meat being that the grain ferments in their cute little bellies and causes all sorts of problems. If all the meat eaters had to pay for grass fed beef, well, by darn it, they might change their minds about eating it every meal. Luckily, there are always hotdogs where you can get chicken, beef , and pork in a single, tasty, cylindrical serving. Pure magic!
pakeha
Well-known
anyone want to discuss the pros and cons of eating what i will loosely term `chicken`?
:bang:
:bang:
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
...and to think that they laughed at my camera covered in fur idea.
What about leopard skin? Goes well with parka
Sparrow
Veteran
... I expect if they tested the film on sale in the UK they'd find traces of horse
Lund
Established
Gelatin is in almost all cases a byproduct of the meat industry. As it is now it would make no difference to use gelatin based film or find an alternative.
Gelatin and other animal products are also almost impossible to avoid. It is in everything.
Not the link I searched after but the one I found.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1217794/From-bullets-bread-beer-tambourines-toothpaste--plus-180-things-pig.html
As a vegetarian turned almost vegan I do not recognize myself in the views expressed here about vegans. But whatever makes you happy.
Gelatin and other animal products are also almost impossible to avoid. It is in everything.
Not the link I searched after but the one I found.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1217794/From-bullets-bread-beer-tambourines-toothpaste--plus-180-things-pig.html
As a vegetarian turned almost vegan I do not recognize myself in the views expressed here about vegans. But whatever makes you happy.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
It need not be - and neither should vegetable or synthetic gelling agents. Blame the food industry.
Oh, and FWIW, they use bovine rather than pig gelatin for film.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
But a LOT faster-burning!
And (in response to an earlier post (not yours) of course nitrate film still has a gelatine emulsion on it.
Cheers,
R.
Sparrow
Veteran
... the first synthetic snooker balls were also made of nitrated-cellulose, which must have improved the game no end
Roger Hicks
Veteran
We all draw lines, but I do not think they are necessarily arbitrary. For example, the most ferocious carnivore would normally prefer that his meat was killed quickly and humanely. And I pay more for free-range eggs, chickens and pigs: I will not eat battery-farmed if I can help it.
Slandering vegans? Well, I tend to look at evolution here. Most apes (including Pan narrans, better known as Homo sapiens) are omnivores. On the one hand I can admire someone who is so extremely ethical that they will not eat even animal products (milk, eggs). On the other, I can't help wondering about their understanding of biology and ecosystems in general. In nature, after all, the fate of most animals is (in a memorable phrase I read many years ago 'to be eaten alive as babies'.
Cheers,
R.
