mugent
Well-known
I think, regardless of evolution, wether meat eating is a natural state. The fact is, the world has far too many people in it, consuming resources at a rate that is not sustainable.
If we stopped eating animals to save their lives, we'd kill probably many more by clearing their habitats to grow crops.
If we really, *really* want to save animals, we need to stop reproducing at rate we are, and stop consuming resources at the rate we are.
The thing is... I consider my own comfort, pleasure, more important than the future of the planet, and I don't know anyone who doesn't feel this way.
If we stopped eating animals to save their lives, we'd kill probably many more by clearing their habitats to grow crops.
If we really, *really* want to save animals, we need to stop reproducing at rate we are, and stop consuming resources at the rate we are.
The thing is... I consider my own comfort, pleasure, more important than the future of the planet, and I don't know anyone who doesn't feel this way.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
No, that would be the other way around. We use a bigger area to grow crops to feed to farm animals than for crops we eat ourselves.
KansanTim
Established
I've been reading posts on rangefinderforum for quite a while, always intending to sign up at some point. I am genuinely interested in rangefinders and photography both, so it's kind of unfortunate that with my very first post I'm diving into the forum on a side-topic instead, but it's actually what got me to finally sign up.
Here goes:
Sustainable food systems are a separate interest of mine (and much closer to the field of my formal education). For those interested in reducing their impact on the wider world, it is true that reducing meat consumption from a typical Western diet is going to be an environmental improvement almost anywhere, as is buying better-sourced meat like that of pastured animals. For vegans, there is nothing wrong environmentally with not consuming any animal products on an individual level, so I'm not attacking you in my next paragraph. Feel free to continue to abstain.
However, all complete sustainable food systems include animal production. The Guardian article in the first link actually misrepresented the UN report it talked about. Read the original report, plus the UN FAO papers on the topic. Nowhere does the UN report itself suggest veganism--that was the Guardian's (mis)interpretation. It recommends a reduction of animal products, which is not the same as elimination. It also suggests seeing food production not as individual products, but as an ecological whole. In other UN reports, and in work by agroecologists, the truly lowest footprint systems involve plants and animals integrated into a system through their complementary ecological roles, adapted to regional conditions. The nature of true ecosystems, even artificially designed ones, means animal products and meat are part of the most sustainable system.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Welcome, and please do post more often!
Thank you for the informative post. Makes a lot of sense.
Another perspective comes from the environmental impact of processed plant protein alternatives used to substitute for meat, which may equal or even surpass that of meat. (Of course, unprocessed protein sources like beans whole grains are a different story).
A key point of contention lies in the amount of self-education necessary to make an informed decision. In a neoliberal economy, undue emphasis is placed on the personalization and privatization of social risk, which includes the flow of information. That's why we also need collective forms of responsibility and education.
Thank you for the informative post. Makes a lot of sense.
Another perspective comes from the environmental impact of processed plant protein alternatives used to substitute for meat, which may equal or even surpass that of meat. (Of course, unprocessed protein sources like beans whole grains are a different story).
A key point of contention lies in the amount of self-education necessary to make an informed decision. In a neoliberal economy, undue emphasis is placed on the personalization and privatization of social risk, which includes the flow of information. That's why we also need collective forms of responsibility and education.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Indisputably true!
Though actually I'd say that risk tended to be externalized, i.e. shoved onto the community at large, wherever possible.
Cheers,
R.
KansanTim
Established
Thank you for the welcome to the site!
I just had to get that food stuff out because, while I agree the current system has many problems, there is a big difference between reducing and eliminating animals from the system. There is a vegetarian (near-vegan, but on rare occasions tolerates some cheese or butter in a dish when with company) from the department I was working in who sees the issue similar to my own view, in that we both agree reducing meat consumption from current Western levels is definitely good, but eliminating animal production altogether would not be good at all. Two things that people rarely think about are 1) animal inputs are a big part of plant agriculture, especially plant agriculture that doesn't depend on chemically manufactured fertilizers, and 2) there are many areas that can support animals grazing or foraging but cannot support human consumable crops, like the Flint Hills in my native Kansas, or places such as the Mongolian steppe.
Good point about the processing level. Usually in comparative statistics the numbers for plants in the diet assume whole beans and grains, which are of course very different from processed plant proteins in efficiency from a given piece of land. As to educating people on the topic, I'm kind of at a loss for how it could be done collectively, even if I agree that's needed.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Just talking about it it probably helps, as do helpful and informative posts such as yours. And, yes, welcome: sorry I didn't say so earlier.
Cheers,
R.
KansanTim
Established
Thank you! I also very much agree with your earlier point that the risks are actually collectivized, which is why we need collective education and responsibility noimmunity called for.
At the risk of coming across as too much of a flatterer, I'll also go ahead and mention that I'm reasonably certain I discovered rangefinderforum in the first place through your name. The Black and White Handbook was one of my first books to learn about photography, and at one point I was a subscriber to your website, when it was subscription-based (a generous gift from one of my sisters). Very informative stuff.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Thank'ee kindly. I am indeed agreeably flattered, but I also feel guilty at how much of your money I may have been responsible for your spending...
Cheers,
R.
KansanTim
Established
Oh, no need for any guilt, I'm happy about any portion that goes to you on the reading materials, and I think I would have taken the interest in photography either way, so most of the equipment and materials costs would still be there. I did learn what a rangefinder was from those sources, though, and it was like a revelation. At the time, I had no idea they existed--contrary to many claims I've seen on this forum, I don't think most people know Leica from any other brand. I know rangefinders don't suit everyone, but the used Bessa R I got sure suited me more than any SLR or point-and-shoot I had used before it. Haven't touched an SLR since, as I never did macro or long telephoto stuff even when I had one, so really not giving anything up. That extra satisfaction of the right camera was well worth the price of the book and the camera.
RichL
Well-known
One thing for certain is that all the discussing, philosophizing and scientific planning for better crops, whether plant or animal, will be no more than an exercise in futility till we (the world) starts following the adage "All things in moderation."
robklurfield
eclipse
Bill Cosby: "There's always room for Jello."
If you told a little kid where the gelatin in that jello came from, I can only assume they'd run away in fear rather than eat it.
If you told a little kid where the gelatin in that jello came from, I can only assume they'd run away in fear rather than eat it.
KansanTim
Established
I dunno about that. I admit I didn't much like jello desserts as a kid (or now), but I had no problem with jellied meat dishes, and I certainly knew how they were made.
I think a lot of the perceptions of children about what's gross or not come from the surrounding culture, as do their perceptions regarding animals more generally. I recently read an article in Pacific Standard Magazine on how some researchers found supposedly "universal" behaviors were in fact Western behaviors:
http://www.psmag.com/magazines/paci...m-game-shaking-up-psychology-economics-53135/
There is a bit in there about differing patterns of anthropomorphizing animals in childhood.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Highlight: very true. Air-dried Spanish hams sometimes have the trotter on them. I was a bit worried about how some friends' kids might react. No problem: they just loved the ham. They were English, too: the French are even less squeamish, though tragically horse butchers (boucheries chevaline) are succumbing to Anglo-Saxon style mimsiness.
Cheers,
R.
KansanTim
Established
I certainly found the highlight to be true. I currently live in Paris (in fact, a Spanish ham, with trotter, is on display in a window just around the corner) and I find the French much closer in attitude to me about things like those hams, dry-cured meats in general, horse meat, offal, etc. than most Americans are. I know fellow Americans who are horrified by blood sausage, which I find a hard attitude to understand in anyone who eats meat. My own different attitude is hard to explain, being an American who grew up in a city, other than my parents enjoyed all of those things. Starts in the home, I guess.
I also share the sadness regarding the decline of boucheries chevaline. I read at one point there was a bump in sales (without looking it up, I want to say 15%?) here in France just after the horse-in-beef scandal broke out, but I have no idea if it had any sort of staying power, or if the bump was even confirmed as widespread or of any significant duration.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Have you ever tried English blood sausage? It's generally pretty horrific, having been made with reconstituted dried blood. The best proper blutwurst I ever had was in Poland, barbecued.
Cheers,
R.
noimmunity
scratch my niche
I love achieving consensus!
noimmunity
scratch my niche
Are those the fried kind?
Then there is the pig's blood cake 豬血糕, served on a popsicle stick, rolled in crushed peanuts, that is served in Taiwan, or the duck blood 'tofu' 鴨血 also served there...
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Yes, normally sliced and fried. There was an excellent edition of the BBC's Food Program about the World Black Pudding Championships: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s395f
Cheers,
R.
KansanTim
Established
Ah, good point. Being horrified at quality is understandable (at the very idea is another matter...). I don't believe I've ever had English blood sausage, even though I did live in England for a year. I might just have to keep avoiding it after your description, though I usually like to try something once before writing it off.
I enjoy boudin noir quite a bit here in France, but am much more used to East European varieties. Polish ones were available in a Polish food shop near my parents place back in the states (never been to Poland myself), as were Balkan-style ones in another shop. I'm not sure if I could describe a major difference between them, because I'm sure fillers varied (rice, buckwheat, others?), and I'm not certain which were which, plus the varieties might have been two types with the same origin. My father leaned towards the Balkan ones, because he lived in then-Yugoslavia for a couple of years, and is very fond of Slovenia (the region he was in) to this day. If I had to pick a favorite, I think I would go with some I had not long ago in Romania (my wife is Romanian). They were excellent (rice filler), but do have the advantages of being both the most recent and being associated with my better half.