About buying an MP

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loquax ludens

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The idea of buying an MP has been growing and gradually solidifying in my mind over the past few weeks. I don't need another camera. I just want it. I've wanted an MP since they came out in 2003, but I couldn't spend the money then. Now they cost more than ever, but such is life; the dollar is also worth less now than it was then.

I was especially attracted to the hammer tone model at first, and I swore I would someday have one. But now I'm more attracted to the silver chrome model. It has a classic look that reminds me of my IIIc. Anyway I'm a camera user, not a collector, and it seems that the hammer tone cameras are more the collectible sort.

The black MP is pretty nice looking too, albeit a bit intense, but frankly I'm more interested in getting a used MP in top condition for a good price than I am about the color. The color and finish are of secondary importance.

I would like to find an MP that is like new, as mint as possible, but costing a good bit less than a brand new one. The new ones seem to be priced pretty consistently at about $5000. Good looking used ones on ebay seem to be in the low $3k range.

I have some questions to help me get started on my MP quest. I greatly appreciate any guidance that any of you might offer.

In case I missed it, are there any sources of new MPs for less than $4995? It's a long shot, I know.

Are there other good sources of used MPs besides ebay?

Aside from the normal concerns about ebay buying, about which I'm very familiar, are there particular things to watch out for when buying a used MP? For example, are there particular serial number boundaries at which important improvements were made? Did Leica fix the loose top problem I have read about? Where is the serial number boundary for that? I have read that they changed the ISO dial and made it less apt to be turned accidentally at some point. Also the DIN numbers were removed from the ISO dial, but that is a change that is unimportant to me since I only care about the ASA numbers.

I'm an eyeglass wearer, but even with correction, my eyesight is not all that great. I have trouble focusing some of my cameras. I do just fine with my Bessa R in just about any light. It has a .68 magnification viewfinder if I recall correctly. But I can only focus my IIIc in good light. I know that many people say that the .58 viewfinder is better for eyeglass wearers, but I'm afraid in my case it would make the image inside the frame lines too small and compound my focusing difficulty. And I wonder if focal length preference factors in to the equation.

I tend to prefer portraits and intimate shots in the 35mm format. Consequently, I most often choose the 50mm to 90mm range with a 35mm RF, and 50 to 200 with a 35mm SLR. I frequently use a 35mm with my Bessa R, but that's only because that's the lens that came with it. I like a 50mm better.

So, does the focal length preference factor into the viewfinder magnification choice? From the viewfinder pictures on the Leica web site, I think a .72 or .85 will be easier for me to focus with my preferred 50mm to 135mm focal length range, despite the fact that I wear eyeglasses.

If I end up with .72, which is the viewfinder found on the vast majority of used MPs, do you think I would run into problems being an eyeglass wearer trying to focus 50mm to 90mm lenses, and occasionally 35mm? Would an external top-mounted viewfinder enable me to see the frame lines for 35mm to 21mm lenses better?

Those are my starting questions. The viewfinder magnification question, in particular, has got me stopped dead in my tracks right now. I don't want to end up with a viewfinder I won't be comfortable with. And btw, I have no idea where I could possibly go to try out all three in person. I doubt there are any camera dealers in my area that would stock one of each. My guess is that if I could find one at a camera store, it would be a .72.
 
Loquax Ludens,

Few months earlier, I was exactly in the same situation you are in now. Then, I went to an official Leica dealer in Paris that knows his job well (servicing cameras and lenses, etc.; got my old glasses and Leica IIIs cleaned there) and ask for they display models. Normally, a leica user does have display model to show you differences between cameras, and the finder selectable from the "à la carte" programme.

I found that I liked de 0.86 finder. And that I hated the new sandpaper-like cover.

A MP with 0.86 magnification, and vulcanite cover would then reach 4000 euros.

Then, I discovered that It was possible to order whatever configuration, then get it through a rent/buy programme, at very very interesting rate (2%). Then… I signed for it!

This was 2 months ago, and I received a phone call yesterday telling me my MP was waiting for me in Paris. Have still to go get it. And I will be paying for it for the next 20 months.

I am quite a heavy user (in the sense I am not gentle with the gear, using it in outdoor bad conditions), and I find the passport system of new leica camera (5 years full garanty/insured) very nice for me.

Paying all of a sudden the total amount of the MP's price was impossible to me, but on a 20 months payment basis, I can do it with not too much impact to my daily necessities.

Did you consider it that way too?
 
I am a glass wearer and the .85 VF with a 50mm lens is the ideal situation (although an M3 is the ultimate). I found the .72 VF with a 50mm lens to be quite satisfactory. Laurent has a good point in getting the ala carte the way you want it and getting the 5yr passport to boot. One thing on that note to keep in mind: Sending to Leica for repair is usually a long wait, important to have a backup. On the other hand keeping an eye on RFF and even KEH for a good used one is also a good way to go. I found the prices for Leica M cameras to be quite high on eBay and without really knowing the seller makes me feel uncomfortable. All the best,
 
Still looking for an MP?

Try Vintage Visuals in Calgary - sounds like they have a nice one.

I've bought lots from Tim - a fantastic guy.

Vick
 
Popflash Photo (look for the ad on the left side of the page) has a nice-looking silver MP.

No connection except Tony is a good guy to do business with.

...Mike
 
The VF magnification is to accommodate frequent users of groups of focal lengths. If you mainly use lenses 50-90mm and only occasionally use a 35mm lens then the 0.85x mag body is your best bet. I use both 0.85 and 0.72 max and mainly use the 0.72x body for lenses <=35mm. Having said that, a 0.85x body will be much harder to find than a 0.72x body as Leica now only makes the 0.58 and 0.85 bodies for a la carte orders. The only way to judge whether you'd be uncomfortable with a 0.72x VF is to rent a 0.72 body from a place like Photo Village in NYC. It's worth sending Rich Pinto an email to see if he can help you.

Serial numbers are not much of a guide anymore with respect to production issues. Leica manufactures in batches and so serial number are all over the place. The company stopped listing serial numbers by date sometime after the year 2000.
 
Thank you all for the input so far. Your comments about viewfinder magnification are most welcome. It sounds as though my thoughts on that were on target.

I hadn't considered buying on credit or lease/buy arrangements. I'm not that fond of that idea, but it's an option if I have to end up going ala carte. I'm not ready to make final conclusions yet by any means.

kshapero, is it the .91 magnification of the M3 viewfinder that makes it the ultimate? I have seen a lot of praise for it. It makes one wonder why Leica adopted the .72 as the standard viewfinder. I've considered buying an M3, but mint ones are pricey for their age. Still a consideration if I decide to save money over an MP. The problem is that I don't think the M3 will eliminate my desire for an MP, so if I buy an M3 first, I'd probably end up with both cameras eventually! Not that it's a terrible idea. :)
 
The 0.91 VF of the M3 was dropped because you can't fit 35mm framelines in it, and nearly everyone wants 35mm framelines. In fact, if you don't wear glasses, the whole M3 VF outside the brightlines is more or less 35mm view (I've compared it to my M2 and a 35mm accessory VF) but of course you lose parallax correction.

I think an M3 just might eliminate your desire for an MP, unless a meter is a real show-stopper. The M3 was built with no regard given to cost and was jaw-droppingly expensive (compared to average incomes) when new. Heck, James Bond uses one in "Goldfinger" just to show how riich he is.
 
Built in meter is a convenience, but I also have a VC hot shoe meter, so not a necessity. M3 has a dimmer viewfinder than MP, doesn't it? That's a concern. My IIIc viewfinder is small and dim, and thus limits me to daytime bright light shooting.
 
I have had an M6 and an M7 and nothing compares to the M3. The .91 VF is dead on. I use it regularly with a 35mm as others have said. Using an external meter is a piece of cake and sometimes I use my memory and experience. Forget about mint. just get one and send it in for a CLA and its as good as new. Youxin Ye did a fine job for me.
 
loquax ludens said:
The idea of buying an MP has been growing and gradually solidifying in my mind over the past few weeks. I don't need another camera. I just want it. I've wanted an MP since they came out in 2003, but I couldn't spend the money then. Now they cost more than ever, but such is life; the dollar is also worth less now than it was then.

I was especially attracted to the hammer tone model at first, and I swore I would someday have one. But now I'm more attracted to the silver chrome model. It has a classic look that reminds me of my IIIc. Anyway I'm a camera user, not a collector, and it seems that the hammer tone cameras are more the collectible sort.

The black MP is pretty nice looking too, albeit a bit intense, but frankly I'm more interested in getting a used MP in top condition for a good price than I am about the color. The color and finish are of secondary importance.

I would like to find an MP that is like new, as mint as possible, but costing a good bit less than a brand new one. The new ones seem to be priced pretty consistently at about $5000. Good looking used ones on ebay seem to be in the low $3k range.

I have some questions to help me get started on my MP quest. I greatly appreciate any guidance that any of you might offer.

In case I missed it, are there any sources of new MPs for less than $4995? It's a long shot, I know.

Are there other good sources of used MPs besides ebay?

Aside from the normal concerns about ebay buying, about which I'm very familiar, are there particular things to watch out for when buying a used MP? For example, are there particular serial number boundaries at which important improvements were made? Did Leica fix the loose top problem I have read about? Where is the serial number boundary for that? I have read that they changed the ISO dial and made it less apt to be turned accidentally at some point. Also the DIN numbers were removed from the ISO dial, but that is a change that is unimportant to me since I only care about the ASA numbers.

I'm an eyeglass wearer, but even with correction, my eyesight is not all that great. I have trouble focusing some of my cameras. I do just fine with my Bessa R in just about any light. It has a .68 magnification viewfinder if I recall correctly. But I can only focus my IIIc in good light. I know that many people say that the .58 viewfinder is better for eyeglass wearers, but I'm afraid in my case it would make the image inside the frame lines too small and compound my focusing difficulty. And I wonder if focal length preference factors in to the equation.

I tend to prefer portraits and intimate shots in the 35mm format. Consequently, I most often choose the 50mm to 90mm range with a 35mm RF, and 50 to 200 with a 35mm SLR. I frequently use a 35mm with my Bessa R, but that's only because that's the lens that came with it. I like a 50mm better.

So, does the focal length preference factor into the viewfinder magnification choice? From the viewfinder pictures on the Leica web site, I think a .72 or .85 will be easier for me to focus with my preferred 50mm to 135mm focal length range, despite the fact that I wear eyeglasses.

If I end up with .72, which is the viewfinder found on the vast majority of used MPs, do you think I would run into problems being an eyeglass wearer trying to focus 50mm to 90mm lenses, and occasionally 35mm? Would an external top-mounted viewfinder enable me to see the frame lines for 35mm to 21mm lenses better?

Those are my starting questions. The viewfinder magnification question, in particular, has got me stopped dead in my tracks right now. I don't want to end up with a viewfinder I won't be comfortable with. And btw, I have no idea where I could possibly go to try out all three in person. I doubt there are any camera dealers in my area that would stock one of each. My guess is that if I could find one at a camera store, it would be a .72.
Click to expand...


$4995 is right around MAP, and although no one sells for "list price" no one is allowed to sell (openly/advertise) below MAP and still be a Leica dealer. The only way to get one cheaper new would be something under the table or a deal taking advantage of favorable exchange rates (somewhat doubtful). When I bought my MP, I paid cost due to working at a Leica dealer; that was when MAP was still around $3,495 (cost was, about $2,795 US) In a few short years the price has "skyrocketed" If you have to have a new one, know that Leica has a habit of consistently raising their prices with every new list that they publish; now may not be a good time to buy, but tomorrow may be worse :)

If you buy one, use it hard enough for long enough that it will be worn to the point that it's resale value is damaged. You will then be less likely to consider getting rid of it then wishing you hadn't.
 
Last edited:
Kherberos said:
Loquax Ludens,

Few months earlier, I was exactly in the same situation you are in now. Then, I went to an official Leica dealer in Paris that knows his job well (servicing cameras and lenses, etc.; got my old glasses and Leica IIIs cleaned there) and ask for they display models. Normally, a leica user does have display model to show you differences between cameras, and the finder selectable from the "à la carte" programme.

I found that I liked de 0.86 finder. And that I hated the new sandpaper-like cover.

A MP with 0.86 magnification, and vulcanite cover would then reach 4000 euros.

Then, I discovered that It was possible to order whatever configuration, then get it through a rent/buy programme, at very very interesting rate (2%). Then… I signed for it!

This was 2 months ago, and I received a phone call yesterday telling me my MP was waiting for me in Paris. Have still to go get it. And I will be paying for it for the next 20 months.

I am quite a heavy user (in the sense I am not gentle with the gear, using it in outdoor bad conditions), and I find the passport system of new leica camera (5 years full garanty/insured) very nice for me.

Paying all of a sudden the total amount of the MP's price was impossible to me, but on a 20 months payment basis, I can do it with not too much impact to my daily necessities.

Did you consider it that way too?
Click to expand...


How much would you end up paying on a 20 month payment plan? I've been thinking of doing something like that to get an M6.. once i find a dealer maybe..
 
If you are now considering an M3 or M2, bear in mind that you need to take care using the viewfinder. Since the viewfinder has a metal ring on those older cameras, it can easily scratch your glasses.
Aki-Asahi or Dag are offering protective covers.
 
yoyo22 said:
If you are now considering an M3 or M2, bear in mind that you need to take care using the viewfinder. Since the viewfinder has a metal ring on those older cameras, it can easily scratch your glasses.
Aki-Asahi or Dag are offering protective covers.
Click to expand...
Big deal, you get 5 for $7. And besides I have never scratched my glasses on an unprotected VF, but I got the felt rings anyway. I am sucker for this kind of stuff.
 
The M3 enthusiasm is catching. What is a typical price range for an excellent condition M3 single stroke with late serial number (after 919,251 based on info from Cameraquest site)?
 
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