Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
That's an interesting statement!
awilder
Alan Wilder
Several years ago I bought a new Hammertone MP from Dan Black (great guy, honest dealer) for 3.5K. Although it was a nice camera, I found it not significantly better than the M6's I've owned in the past and the only real improvement was less RF patch flare, something easily fixed with any M6 for about $240. In fact, my MP's frame counter malfunctioned (out of warranty of course) due to a flaw in the oversimplification (cheapening) of the original frame counter design from the earlier Wetzlar cameras. This flaw has existed since the M4-P although it doesn't manifest in failure of every camera, but for 5K, they should have gone back to the original design which was flawless according to DAG. The best fix was to have DAG replace it with an M4 frame counter mechanism. You can ask Sherry Krauter her honest opinion of the MP but from my conversations with her about the camera, it's build quality doesn't nearly measure up to the Wetzlar cameras of years past, but she's rather opinionated about these things. I'd hate to see you spend that much for a camera and be disappointed if it doesn't measure up to your expectations.
You also mentioned being an eyeglass wearer with less than perfect sight. Might I sugggest you consider purchasing a +0.5 D accessory eyepiece lens if you currently wear bifocals or progressive lenses. This will sharpen the RF patch image very nicely when focusing on subjects 1 meter or closer without affecting infinity focus.
You also mentioned being an eyeglass wearer with less than perfect sight. Might I sugggest you consider purchasing a +0.5 D accessory eyepiece lens if you currently wear bifocals or progressive lenses. This will sharpen the RF patch image very nicely when focusing on subjects 1 meter or closer without affecting infinity focus.
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Her opinion has to carry substantial weight based on her record of obviously having had hundreds (thousands?) of Leicas apart over the years.
I'd love to hear her opinion of the current model Cosina bodies and the over all very light weight approach to camera engineering generally these days.
I'd love to hear her opinion of the current model Cosina bodies and the over all very light weight approach to camera engineering generally these days.
Kherberos
Laurent
In the end, It will cost me about an additional 100 euros. leasing programme is available for France on the very web site of Leica France. May be it is the same for the USA?
As for the M3, I almost bought one in very good condition… but finally changed my mind, as I have already 2 meter less Leica (a Leica IIIc and a Leica IIIg). Comparing a 0.85 MP and a 0.91 M3, I am not feeling real differences for me (I wear glasses too). M3's viewfinder is more magnified, but I find the image in the MP 0.85 to be nicer. Subjective, I suppose. Having a IIIg, being happy with it, I don't see the point in having a M3. And It is nice to have, in a system, at least one camera equiped with a meter.
Actually, I prefer my ultra clean Leica IIIg to a Leica M3…
It does the same thing, has an even MUCH bigger rangefinder magnification (ultra precise), and the viewfinder does the same as a M3's. And the IIIg is more compact.But If I did not have a Leica IIIg and a MP, I would have a M3 and a MP. In the future (5 years from now?), I may also buy a 0.58 MP, then selling my IIIg. Thinking of a system, I was considering that having both a 0.58 and a 0.85 (or 0.91 M3) MP would be a nice solution.
loquax ludens
Well-known
Ok, ok.
My M6 TTL is being serviced and also to get the MP upgrades.
We got to talk, and ask about what she thinks of my M6 condition, so she starts to talk about the M6 (TTL) line in general. She let me down easy
I mentioned my own 'want' of an M7 or MP. She replied back that whenever anybody calls her to buy an MP, she would suggest a 2nd option for them, to get (2) M6 instead and do the MP upgrade. Have the quality/feature from the MP without the price.
The M6 camera 'economic' decisions back then was met with an uproar and hence some quality came back to the M7 and MP. But she still took the opportunity to take a swing at Leica here, something along the line that the bottom line was still driving force even for this high end bodies.
She also mentioned that the M7 "is a accident waiting to happen?", I think I heard her correctly.
And if you're looking to buy an M, this is what her suggestions according to the lines (that I asked about):
- for any M6, bodies that are under the 2 million mark. She prefers the 174-178 batch and her 2nd preference is the 191-198. (Mine is 274xxxx! Hah!)
- for an M2, pick the ones that have the reverse lever
- for M3 sn > 964xxx
- any M4
Underline this was a phone conversation, and I'm not in any way very knowledgeable in all Leica's history. I'm paraphrasing here, and of course I could very well missed some points.
I see it as a Leica repair specialist (work at Leitz) view on quality.
My newly upgraded M6 and M3 (999xxx) will hold me for a while.
nlubis, thank you for sharing that on the thread. That is some very interesting information from an acknowledged expert on the subject.
BTW, I'm not familiar with the MP upgrade to the M6. What does that consist of?
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loquax ludens
Well-known
Thank you for that tip, awilder. I wear progressives. I have to be careful to look through the right part of my glasses lens. The diopter accessory is something I'm interested in trying.
loquax ludens
Well-known
I don't know his background. Does he have a source other than a steady stream of cameras sent to him by customers for cleaning?
Same for Sherry, DAG, et. al. I know they all repair and CLA them, but where do they get extra stock for sale? Buy cheap broken ones and repair them? That would seem logical.
kshapero
South Florida Man
Don't know, you might ask them. Also I wear progressive trifocals and I have never adjusted the diopters, never a problem. You might be obsessing a little bit. BTW KEH has 3 or 4 M3's. I have bought from them for over 20 years. If I didn't like something they always took it back and that almost never happens.
loquax ludens
Well-known
Sorry. I thought you might know since you mentioned it. It was just a matter of conversational curiosity and not really important to me.
Everyone's eyesight is different. I love photography, but it's a strain on my eyes. [RANT] I tried autofocus cameras (various modern Canon only) because I thought that would relieve me of the need for critical focus by eyesight; let the camera do the work. But it didn't seem to work as well as I had hoped. Plus the build quality of the modern AF bodies and lenses of the cameras that I tried was unsatisfactory to me. Cheap materials and mass market faux-workmanship of the cameras was unappealing. I also didn't like the operational characteristics of the modern whiz-bang SLRs either. Setting the controls always felt to me like playing with a Nintendo Gameboy. DSLRs are even worse in that regard. I have trouble enough with my cell phone; I don't want that sort of unnecessary (in my view) complexity intruding into my photography. [/RANT]
I don't think I am obsessing. I'm just picky.
I don't want to have to go through a succession of similar cameras to find one I'll be satisfied with. I concede that may be the only way to do it with really old cameras though. I love the looks of the new MP and I thought the fact that even the used ones are relatively new would make this an easy decision. It was just going to be a matter of viewfinder magnification, ultimately. Then all of you turned me on to the possibility of an M3. I just didn't realize how uneducated I was. It's cheaper than an MP and reportedly as well-built (or better, by some accounts). Now I want to explore this a bit before I latch onto the first camera that passes within grasp. Not all old cameras are gems. In fact, most aren't.
I don't care for KEH. I never have. It seems to me that KEH prices everything they sell on the high side of the market. But the main issue I have with their style of selling is that the simplistic catalog approach with a single condition rating and a brief description of the item leaves out most important detail and deeper qualitative assessments. I can see why someone might have to buy and return several cameras under those circumstances.
I'm not really in a hurry. I have time to carefully consider and select my first M.
rpilottx
Established
MP not worth ıt
MP not worth ıt
You mıght want to gıve the photo vıllage or Tamarkın a try. They are Leıca experts and wıll take anythıng back wıth no problems wıthın two weeks of delıvery.
I have owned all the M cameras except the M7 or MP and I keep comıng back to the M2. And thıs mıght be heresy on thıs sıte but I suggest an M6 and have ıt gone over by Sherry ıf you want a meter. It wıll be cheaper and outlast any MP. If a meter ıs not ımportant, get an M3 and have ıt gone over by Sherry. I do not know your age, but ıt wıll outlast you.
MP not worth ıt
You mıght want to gıve the photo vıllage or Tamarkın a try. They are Leıca experts and wıll take anythıng back wıth no problems wıthın two weeks of delıvery.
I have owned all the M cameras except the M7 or MP and I keep comıng back to the M2. And thıs mıght be heresy on thıs sıte but I suggest an M6 and have ıt gone over by Sherry ıf you want a meter. It wıll be cheaper and outlast any MP. If a meter ıs not ımportant, get an M3 and have ıt gone over by Sherry. I do not know your age, but ıt wıll outlast you.
DerekF
Established
I'm not sure how you substantiate this claim, but how would an M6 outlast an MP or vice versa? We can argue the relative value of either camera, but this claim seems contrived. I've not seen any evidence to back up a claim either way.
MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
I'm not smoking anything.. I'm only semi-literate and really didn't understand what you were implying... neither did several other people who's posts are now deleted.
EDIT: (the "what are you smoking" in your edit reason I interpreted as being aimed at me and my stupidity)
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MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
Has Sherry said that the MP's are less reliable? I'd be interested to know as I find it difficult to understand how a camera like that M6, which could potentially be much older than an MP, would definitely outlast the MP.
steveyork
Well-known
I respect Sherry, but she does have strong opinions. She seems to be stuck in the 70's sometimes with her love for the M5 and SL.
It's a relative thing anyway. Even if the M7s, MPs, and M6s are not made as well as those from 'the golden age,' it doesn't mean they're poorly made. Sherry would be the first to admit that the M3, and SL, ect., ect., were probably "over built."
We are now approaching ten years of service since the first M7s and MPs hit the street. And I haven't heard any horror stories. I've owned an MP for eight years now, and it has performed flawlessly.
It's a relative thing anyway. Even if the M7s, MPs, and M6s are not made as well as those from 'the golden age,' it doesn't mean they're poorly made. Sherry would be the first to admit that the M3, and SL, ect., ect., were probably "over built."
We are now approaching ten years of service since the first M7s and MPs hit the street. And I haven't heard any horror stories. I've owned an MP for eight years now, and it has performed flawlessly.
MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
Really? No horror stories?
I had read so much about MPs (probably mostly from people who had never owned or perhaps even touched one) that by the time I got mine I was sure it was going to be covered with bubbly flaking off chrome, with an erratic meter and slanted framelines. The years I had it never saw a hiccup though . . the conformist in me eventually forced the sale of the camera to pay rent though; wish I never had.rpilottx
Established
Perhaps I should have said that an M6 gone over by Sherry will last as long as an MP and is one hell of a lot cheaper. In fact, you could buy two and put the second one on the shelf for 50 years to use when the first one dies and the combined price would still be cheaper then an MP.
I am sure the MP is a fine camera but in my opinion it was a marketing ploy by Leitz to generate sales by appealing to the hard core Leica user claiming it was mechanical perfection. What new technology did they introduce when it was manufactured and why is it always compared to the M2, M3 or M4 for smoothness.
I am sure the MP is a fine camera but in my opinion it was a marketing ploy by Leitz to generate sales by appealing to the hard core Leica user claiming it was mechanical perfection. What new technology did they introduce when it was manufactured and why is it always compared to the M2, M3 or M4 for smoothness.
rogerzilla
Well-known
The MP has a better (more flare resistant) viewfinder and it is available in black paint over brass with a knob rewind.
So, not so much "new technology" as digging up some stuff from the M3. In fact, think of it as a metered M3 and you're not far off. Whether it's therefore worth six times the cost of a user M3, or three times the cost of a spectacularly nice M3, is another matter.
So, not so much "new technology" as digging up some stuff from the M3. In fact, think of it as a metered M3 and you're not far off. Whether it's therefore worth six times the cost of a user M3, or three times the cost of a spectacularly nice M3, is another matter.
MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
You are of course 100% correct with this but if everyone followed this logic (and that's what I think it is) potential Leica users would have boxes full of unopened Bessas lying around rather than ever buying a Leica. I don't think a there's a way to justify an MP financially... still bought one new though (when I was a teenager to boot!)
steveyork
Well-known
Of course it was a marketing ploy. Something Leica should've done decades before they did it. I don't how innards of an MP and M6 compare, whether there is a substantive difference or not -- my vague understanding is that there is a difference in construction beyond the brass top and bottom -- but I know the MP is compared to the M2, M3 and M4 for smoothness, because it is similarly smooth.
MikeL
Go Fish
I had an MP. It had a tight feeling (tolerances?) that I kinda liked. But it was quirky. The shutter wasn't consistent. Had it adjusted, but eventually it would go off under certain conditions which I couldn't anticipate. Had it adjusted again, sold it, and always wondered if the tolerance was too tight somewhere. Not that this is an MP thing. I had a DS M3 at one point that was quirky too. I went back to my 'sloppier' feeling M6 and it's been chugging along fine.
My point? Once you get any M body working well (for me, my M6) don't sell it. That awful term 'build quality' often refers to how something feels/looks rather than performs. And once you don't trust a camera to perform, the heft and tight smooth feel of the wind action don't mean much.
And then one goes onto a internet forum and flames X model like a whiny little X person. And it gets picked up as gospel. Just be happy to find a good working M body and you'll be happy.
My point? Once you get any M body working well (for me, my M6) don't sell it. That awful term 'build quality' often refers to how something feels/looks rather than performs. And once you don't trust a camera to perform, the heft and tight smooth feel of the wind action don't mean much.
And then one goes onto a internet forum and flames X model like a whiny little X person. And it gets picked up as gospel. Just be happy to find a good working M body and you'll be happy.