Accordion Bottles

[Dylan Hope]

I've recently saved up enough money for a shipment of film and darkroom supplies that should last me a year. When I say enough, I mean just enough. I've been looking over my cart, and I've only spotted one thing I can do without;
Arista Air-Evac bottles/accordion bottles

I was thinking about getting five of these since I'm planning to develop in XTOL, and it supposedly has quite a short life-span of six months at optimal storage. If I shoot at 6 rolls a month, I should just make each packet of XTOL last the full six months.
But, the folks at APUG and photo.net have made me question these bottles. I've been reading threads there about them, and they seem pretty adamant for the most part that they are a waste of time and money. So I was wondering how you guys feel about them

So I guess my question is, what have your experiences been with accordion bottles or storage of chemicals that have short-spans?

 

[Highway 61]

Accordion bottles are pure junk.

Use recycled inactinic glass lab bottles instead (get'em for free off your local pharmacy for example).

 

[KenR]

Agree that the accordian bottles are worthless. That's why I don't use Xtol any longer. I stick to HC110 and Rodinal so it isn't an issue for me.

 

[Sparrow]

yep, a good idea that didn't work in practice ...

 

[iandiam]

I use accordion bottles for my C41 kit, but no other. For B&W chem, I mix enough to use, store in glass w/ NEW marbles. and hope for the best. I LIKE grain, and would rather concentrate on my composition than worry about the (free) d76 & dektol I'm using right now. I emphasize NEW marbles (like from the last 30 years) because SOME old marbles have ionically available metals that can foul your developer or fixer. I don't' know if I'm using the right words to describe that, but...

Sometimes, when I run reels, I save a bit of the leader and develop it open in a dish alongside the tank, then pull when the leader hits DMAX, or best to my eye. Not very exact or scientific, but for a hobbyist like me, tis good. If you can make this work, you can also time and adjust by percentage to push/pull.

Other times, I'll time out the leader dish to Dmax and either discard and remake or use the developer accordingly.

Fixer and stop bath (Vitamin C tablets if you really are stuck) are cheap.

 

[alfredian]

Both Light AND Oxygen are bad

Both Light AND Oxygen are bad

Exclude light, for sure, but Oxygen=Air is bad as well. Air in the headspace shortens the life. Even Rodinal, that keeps for decades if Unopened, will start to "age" once you get an air-headspace over it. What to do?

Make up a gallon of developer, and put it into two one-quart (or one-liter) bottles plus a two-quart (two-liter one). You'll probably use up a quart fairly soon, then the second bottle, and when that's empty, refill the two small ones from the big one, and rinse it out. The real problem is when a container is more than half-empty - lots of Oxygen for not many developer molecules. I tried using a one-liter accordion as one of the two "little" ones but it wasn' worth the hassle, given reasonably fast chem usage.

 

[rxmd]

I used them for a while and then ditched them for dark brown lab bottles from a pharmacy. To me it seemed that they're basically impossible to clean properly. Not to mention that you always get developer over your hand when squeezing out the air.

Use glass bottles and either marbles or some inert heavy gas. A quick shot of propane (for refilling lighters) will do the job.

 

[rxmd]

Exclude light, for sure, but Oxygen=Air is bad as well. Air in the headspace shortens the life. Even Rodinal, that keeps for decades if Unopened, will start to "age" once you get an air-headspace over it.

Rodinal will still work for years and years even from an opened bottle (mine is from 2002 or so). It does go dark, though.

A major problem with accordion bottles, IMHO, is whatever trace remains stick to the wall from whatever chemistry was in the bottle previously. As I said, basically you can't clean them properly.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

+1 for the concept that accordion bottles are worthless. But they look like a good idea, and thus many have tried them. I ultimately bought brown glass bottles in 1 liter, 500 ml and 250 ml sizes. When I mix chems, I fill the 1 liter bottles to the brim. At the first use, I use 250ml of stock and decant the rest into the 500 and 250 ml bottles, then use the 250 ml, and so on. At the end of the day, developer and fixer are less expensive than film, and far less expensive than the worth of the time put into getting a particular shot right. So I am quick to discard chemicals if I think they aren't right. To do otherwise seems penny-wise but pound-foolish.

 

[Highway 61]

I used them for a while and then ditched them for dark brown lab bottles from a pharmacy. To me it seemed that they're basically impossible to clean properly. Not to mention that you always get developer over your hand when squeezing out the air.

Use glass bottles and either marbles or some inert heavy gas. A quick shot of propane (for refilling lighters) will do the job.

What he said.

 

[Freakscene]

Accordion bottles trap bubbles in the pleats, but worse, the plastic that most of them are made of is air permeable.

I store Xtol in 250 mL glass bottles and store them in the dark. Each one makes a litre of Xtol 1+3.

Rodinal goes dark through an autoxidative process; this would occur even if it was not exposed to air at all.

Marty

 

[nikon_sam]

I bought two of them a few years ago...used one of them for ??? (I don't remember)
These days I'm using Rodinal or HC-110...I don't want to use chemistry that requires mixing a stock solution and storing it with the chance of it going bad...
I have a few packets of D-76 and Microdol that I doubt I'll ever use...the only one I do have would be a gallon of Fixer but I'll exhaust that before it would go bad from sitting...
I know there are other chemicals out there that are really nice but I'm trying to keep things simple and at the same time get good results...so far I am happy with what I got...

 

[joeswe]

I don't like the accordion bottles either. After messing around with small glass bottles, I found out that for me the perfect method to store Xtol is to use a 5 liter wine bag (bladder). I read about that here on the forum, tested it and I think it works very well. It is safe (will not break like glass, but make sure nobody mistakes it for wine!), keeps light and oxygen out, takes up very little storage and last but not least handles perfectly because it is very clean and precise to "draw". When mixing Xtol, use distilled (de-mineralized) water and try to get as little air as possible into the water when you stir to dissolve the powder.
John

 

[Pirate]

I have used the accordion bottles only had the problem that they would expand overnight no matter how tight the lid was on. I then used rubber bands to keep them compressed and did not have another problem with them. I never had chemical in them for more than a week or two at a time though so I can't comment on anything long term.

 

[Rob-F]

I don't use them. Tried one years ago, was not impressed. I recommend Glenlivet scotch bottles. They hold about 25 oz., so it takes five to hold a gallon of developer. They are green, which helps control the light, and they come with good corks. Other brands may be satisfactory, but I prefer single malt. Duvel 750ml beer bottles, a dark brown, are also good, but you have to supply the cork. Same goes for Guiness Extra Stout, which is probably superior anyway. Dark green wine bottles can be had in a larger size, but again you may be on your own for the cork. Dark brown beer bottles in a 12-ounce size are good as a 1/2 size container.

A slight problem, of course, is that none of these are an even multiple of 8 ounces. But if you develop any quantity at all, the bottle that has some air in it will get used up soon enough.

Drink up, in the interest of photographic science.

 

[MIkhail]

Accordion bottles are pure junk.

Use recycled inactinic glass lab bottles instead (get'em for free off your local pharmacy for example).

Agree. And they leak.
One lab technician recommended this little trick: before you close the bottle after you used some of mixture already, take a deep breath and exhale into the bottle carefully. This way you replacing some of the oxygen in the bottle and slow down the process.

 

[zerobuttons]

A question to those of you who use the brown-glass bottles:
Do you just let the glass marbles fall into the liquid, or do you use any other way of putting the marbles into the bottle?

I have been using the accordeon bottles for a couple of years now. Some of them keep very well "folded" over time, some of them don´t. I suspect the lid threading to be the culprit.
I use the same bottle for the same chemical, also after rinsing it with water and drying it completely, which I do between every mix. No problem there.

 

[Highway 61]

I use 1 liter brown glass bottles for developer stock solution and stop bath / fixer work solution and don't put any glass marbles in the bottles. I have found that the stop bath and the fixer get used by themselves before getting oxydized (and since thay are re-usable solutions the level in the bottle remain quite constant), and even with much air and few liquid remaining in the bottle the D76 or Dektol stock solutions holds well for about 6 months with no problem if kept in a dark, cool place.

Given the arise of the price of the D76 powder I will now have to find some 4 liters dark brown glass bottles for 1-gallon D76 pouches, but that kind of bottle exists (at the very least I will use 2x 2 liters bottles).

 

[ChrisPlatt]

I once used Falcon Air-Evac bottles.
They seemed like a good idea but I found they had all the drawbacks mentioned.
Also, they tend to tilt to one side, sometimes falling over just sitting on the shelf.

Chris

 

[Dylan Hope]

I ultimately bought brown glass bottles in 1 liter, 500 ml and 250 ml sizes. When I mix chems, I fill the 1 liter bottles to the brim. At the first use, I use 250ml of stock and decant the rest into the 500 and 250 ml bottles, then use the 250 ml, and so on.

I don't use them. Tried one years ago, was not impressed. I recommend Glenlivet scotch bottles. They hold about 25 oz., so it takes five to hold a gallon of developer. They are green, which helps control the light, and they come with good corks. Other brands may be satisfactory, but I prefer single malt. Duvel 750ml beer bottles, a dark brown, are also good, but you have to supply the cork. Same goes for Guiness Extra Stout, which is probably superior anyway. Dark green wine bottles can be had in a larger size, but again you may be on your own for the cork. Dark brown beer bottles in a 12-ounce size are good as a 1/2 size container.

Looks like I might just do this. I went around locally seeing if anyone had brown glass bottles like these at the pharmacies, no such luck unless I wanted to carry 100 50ml bottles out with me. Went down to the supermarket and checked out the water section. I spotted six-packs of 250ml San Pellegrino, 750ml bottles of San P., and 1 liter bottles of other expensive water. All glass and resealable, plus I get some fizzy water to drink as well. I suppose that have to do I'm tracking down more suitable bottles
I'll also just add on an extra pack of XTOL in case I don't quite manage to use all before it oxidizes

Thanks for all your help guys, this has made my order a heck of a lot easier to process, mathematically speaking (I won't have to hunt down the tarrif charges on empty bottles, I'm sick of looking at the customs website).