PaulDalex
Dilettante artist
Hi all,
I saw this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FRTvlENpLw
and I am very impressed. I have an old Xperia Z5 premium (23 Mpix) and it makes good photos. The most annoying thing is the wide angle only lens. The Xperia 1 and 5 like many other smart phones have instead 3 primes. Add eye tracking inherited by the Sony cameras and in the hands of a pro the results are pretty good.
Maybe in a not so distant future (also looking at the sales trend of Nikon and Canon) digital cameras will follow the destiny of film cameras and become another niche product.
Your thoughts?
Happy holidays to all RFFers!
Paolo
I saw this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FRTvlENpLw
and I am very impressed. I have an old Xperia Z5 premium (23 Mpix) and it makes good photos. The most annoying thing is the wide angle only lens. The Xperia 1 and 5 like many other smart phones have instead 3 primes. Add eye tracking inherited by the Sony cameras and in the hands of a pro the results are pretty good.
Maybe in a not so distant future (also looking at the sales trend of Nikon and Canon) digital cameras will follow the destiny of film cameras and become another niche product.
Your thoughts?
Happy holidays to all RFFers!
Paolo
benlees
Well-known
I think digital cameras are already a niche product. Cell phone cameras are pretty good and will continue to develop quickly. They leave a lot to be desired in terms of manual control combined with clunky ergonomics. Also, physics won't be denied: fine detail and tonality will always be 'better' with larger sensors and lenses designed for them. That said, I've taken more photos with my cell phone than with any camera over the last few years...
G
Guest
Guest
Well I for one am glad that all I have is an old flip phone, if Hasselblad, Rolleiflex and Leica ever produce a camera that can also be used as a phone I would no doubt have a stroke.
No digital phone camera can produce the Black and White print quality of the above said optics. And after the electronics pack in as they surely will do, my wireless and battery less cameras will still be working as smoothly as ever.
No digital phone camera can produce the Black and White print quality of the above said optics. And after the electronics pack in as they surely will do, my wireless and battery less cameras will still be working as smoothly as ever.
aizan
Veteran
The thing holding back smartphones from being great cameras is that they are still primarily smartphones. Their usability is still pretty limiting, and there's not much they can do within the smartphone form factor. They're good at what they can do, though.
If a "real" camera could upload photos to the Internet directly, I would use my smartphone much less often.
If a "real" camera could upload photos to the Internet directly, I would use my smartphone much less often.
RichC
Well-known
I have a master's degree in photography, and photography is massively important to me...
But I haven't used my camera since May, 7 months ago. And before that, it was the previous March.
I now only use my camera for serious projects and commissions. All my personal photographs - friends, family, holidays, memories, "out and about" - are taken with my Samsung phone. My Samsung is so convenient and good that I use it as my everyday camera - it's always with me, shoots in raw, I can instantly edit and upload online, and prints are pin sharp...
If all you care about is the image - like me - then the camera is dead except for specialist uses. For the foreseeable future I will need my high-end Sony, but with advances in technology, especially artificial intelligence and computational photography, the traditional camera will disappear within my lifetime.
I gave up 35mm film a decade ago when digital surpassed it in quality and 35mm film no longer had any practical advantages. I kept using 120 film alongside digital, but high-end digital now surpasses medium-format film in resolution (its last advantage over film), so I've given up film entirely.
So, film is obsolete for practical purposes, and the camera is going that way fast.
But I haven't used my camera since May, 7 months ago. And before that, it was the previous March.
I now only use my camera for serious projects and commissions. All my personal photographs - friends, family, holidays, memories, "out and about" - are taken with my Samsung phone. My Samsung is so convenient and good that I use it as my everyday camera - it's always with me, shoots in raw, I can instantly edit and upload online, and prints are pin sharp...
If all you care about is the image - like me - then the camera is dead except for specialist uses. For the foreseeable future I will need my high-end Sony, but with advances in technology, especially artificial intelligence and computational photography, the traditional camera will disappear within my lifetime.
I gave up 35mm film a decade ago when digital surpassed it in quality and 35mm film no longer had any practical advantages. I kept using 120 film alongside digital, but high-end digital now surpasses medium-format film in resolution (its last advantage over film), so I've given up film entirely.
So, film is obsolete for practical purposes, and the camera is going that way fast.
emraphoto
Veteran
Photography is many things for many people. With that said, I have shared a similar path and for myself, any image making device will do. Access, trust and 2 dimensional design logic is all that matters to me. Sadly I find phones maddening when it comes to photography due to ergonomics so compacts/point and shoots are my cup of tea. Often a few generations old to boot!
Disappointed_Horse
Well-known
This is photography we are talking about—since when does "practical" have anything to do with it?
Personally, I enjoy using manual focus 35mm cameras. I like the close-to-the-metal feeling. I think comparing a good manual focus camera to a digital camera is like comparing driving an old sports car with a manual transmission to driving a Tesla. The Tesla gets you there faster and more efficiently but the old sports car is a mechanical joy to operate and is satisfying in a way the electric vehicle could never be.
I also happen to like the look of the photos I make with my old 35mms.
When it comes to digital, I don't particularly enjoy using any of them that much. (I suppose I might feel differently if I could afford an M10-P, but that will be purely hypothetically unless I win the lottery.) My iPhone Xr is good enough for an everyday digital camera, and the only times I use my DSLRs any more is when I need a long zoom (which is very seldom these days).
benlees
Well-known
This is my experience and general outlook as well. I view photography as image trapping and recreation. However this happens is fine as long as it works...
Huss
Veteran
Define “quality”
I don’t like the way digital looks. Doesn’t matter what the specs are.
That’s why I shoot film.
There is nothing practical about art.
Prest_400
Multiformat
I've got what nowadays is considered as ancient iPhone 6. Great snapshooting camera for daylight and a shot made it to the camera club exhibit 8x12" print was fantastic, although getting closer showed lack of fine detail. I do look forward to whichever next gen phone I may get.
Ergonomics wise, of course it's not a camera, but phones are very handy and always around. No issue with composing and shooting with it.
But, I am from what is considered a digital native generation (25 yo) although I consider myself as bridging both mediums.
Have an EM5 and 35-100 2.8 (70-200 eq) which is my main digital camera. Got each of the components for a song. I've been toying the idea of getting a normal or wide prime but at the end of the day I'm shooting much more phone and film for that. Phone goes where camera may be awkward to use and (mostly medium format film) gives me the thoughtful process and fun of printing in the darkroom.
I have a rocky relationship with 35mm. Yes, m43 digital could readily substitute it but doesn't have the look. 10 lab processed and scanned color negs cost as much as that 2nd hand prime lens ($100-125) but still... I keep at it. I do want to split more between Medium Format Film and digital+phone.
At the end of the day it's about tools.
Ergonomics wise, of course it's not a camera, but phones are very handy and always around. No issue with composing and shooting with it.
But, I am from what is considered a digital native generation (25 yo) although I consider myself as bridging both mediums.
Have an EM5 and 35-100 2.8 (70-200 eq) which is my main digital camera. Got each of the components for a song. I've been toying the idea of getting a normal or wide prime but at the end of the day I'm shooting much more phone and film for that. Phone goes where camera may be awkward to use and (mostly medium format film) gives me the thoughtful process and fun of printing in the darkroom.
I have a rocky relationship with 35mm. Yes, m43 digital could readily substitute it but doesn't have the look. 10 lab processed and scanned color negs cost as much as that 2nd hand prime lens ($100-125) but still... I keep at it. I do want to split more between Medium Format Film and digital+phone.
At the end of the day it's about tools.
gavinlg
Veteran
My recent model iPhone's camera is rubbish. It's rubbish to use and the image quality is rubbish. It's barely good enough for note taking and that's pretty much all that I use it for. My first digital camera - a Minolta Dimage in about 2003 had better IQ and was more pleasant to use. My Olympus Pen EE-S from 1962 has far better IQ and is significantly better to use.
No offence to anyone, I just really think the whole 'smartphones are good enough for photography' thing is pure hype. I'm not too old to understand them either, I'm just past 30.
No offence to anyone, I just really think the whole 'smartphones are good enough for photography' thing is pure hype. I'm not too old to understand them either, I'm just past 30.
benlees
Well-known
35mm film (for stills) was considered less than adequate when it first started; mere convenience, utter compromise!
Unless you're using 11x14 film then "image quality" is a compromise. That means we all compromise. Photography is a big place; fine detail and tonality as the final goal is but a small dog in a large park, all be it with a loud bark.
Unless you're using 11x14 film then "image quality" is a compromise. That means we all compromise. Photography is a big place; fine detail and tonality as the final goal is but a small dog in a large park, all be it with a loud bark.
Bill Clark
Veteran
One item I have to be aware of is the lens on my iPhone can easily get smeared with oil from my hand as I find it easy to grasp hold of the phone, usually for talking, forgetting the lens.
I clean it as I find this improves the image quality.
I made some pretty nice photographs on a recent trip to Egypt with my iPhone 6s.
Take a look at this pano of a temple in Luxor Egypt I made with my iPhone 6s. It’s on facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?....100006103561396.-2207520000..&type=3&theater
Huss
Veteran
Yeah.. as mentioned by Bill, do you have a greasy finger print on your lens? I've fixed many a friend's iPhone just by wiping their lens.
While I get no joy using it, the camera on my iPhone 8 is excellent. From a technical perspective. Blows my old Canon S95 digicam out of the water.
But I only use it to text random pics to annoy those in my phone book. Look, a lemon as big as a grapefruit!
I use it for note taking, not photography.
aizan
Veteran
I've been using my hand-me-down iPhone 6 Plus with Moment lenses, and the usability issues are no joke!
1. The LCD screen is not bright enough when it's sunny. Composing a photo is a slow, tedious experience when the sun is behind you or off to the side a bit. If you have to snap fast, you're forced to "embrace" the sloppiness.
Also, the LCD is pretty small compared to the image in a good viewfinder.
2. Using the volume buttons as the shutter when you're doing street photography (I'm using the anamorphic lens as a Hasselblad XPAN alternative) is a headache because I'm using the Moment app to desqueeze the photo in real time, and it often 1) crashes without saving the photo, 2) takes forever to take the photo, or 3) doesn't take a photo at all.
3. Autoexposure is slow to react to large framing adjustments, e.g., raising the camera up to shooting position. This means you have to preset exposure manually, which is normal, but because of the touch screen interface, you can't adjust exposure quickly or without fiddling with the screen. I want a physical exposure compensation dial so bad!
1. The LCD screen is not bright enough when it's sunny. Composing a photo is a slow, tedious experience when the sun is behind you or off to the side a bit. If you have to snap fast, you're forced to "embrace" the sloppiness.
Also, the LCD is pretty small compared to the image in a good viewfinder.2. Using the volume buttons as the shutter when you're doing street photography (I'm using the anamorphic lens as a Hasselblad XPAN alternative) is a headache because I'm using the Moment app to desqueeze the photo in real time, and it often 1) crashes without saving the photo, 2) takes forever to take the photo, or 3) doesn't take a photo at all.
3. Autoexposure is slow to react to large framing adjustments, e.g., raising the camera up to shooting position. This means you have to preset exposure manually, which is normal, but because of the touch screen interface, you can't adjust exposure quickly or without fiddling with the screen. I want a physical exposure compensation dial so bad!
jarski
Veteran
My thinking is that cameras have to follow the smartness of phones, to remain viable. On sensor and glass department phones can never compete, but can compensate with software trickery. Remains to be seen how well current camera firmware ecosystems can answer the challenge from Android & iOS + apps in future.
Edit: processors on cameras currently are also do-one-thing-well-but-not-much-else type off. General purpose programmable processors and operating systems are not anywhere close what phones can offer.
aizan
Veteran
My guess is that a company or two will go out of business, or at least take a big hit in market share, before they finally catch on.
Camera companies have to add the functionality that smartphones have. These things are basic features now.
Camera companies have to add the functionality that smartphones have. These things are basic features now.
PaulDalex
Dilettante artist
Thank you all for the interesting and thought provoking answers!
I think any serious photographer cannot be comfortable taking photos with a phone. The joy that using a top level camera gives, composing carefully, manual controls excellent results all this is gone!
On the other hand oftentimes inspiration strikes and I have no camera with me!
That is when I grab my phone to take some pictures.
And in this perspective the better the result the happier I am, and having more primes tracking autofocus, and possibly more manual controls would certainly help.
At the hand of the day, when this is the only way to take some photos home, one would be better off if they are of more acceptable in quality
I think any serious photographer cannot be comfortable taking photos with a phone. The joy that using a top level camera gives, composing carefully, manual controls excellent results all this is gone!
On the other hand oftentimes inspiration strikes and I have no camera with me!
That is when I grab my phone to take some pictures.
And in this perspective the better the result the happier I am, and having more primes tracking autofocus, and possibly more manual controls would certainly help.
At the hand of the day, when this is the only way to take some photos home, one would be better off if they are of more acceptable in quality
kiemchacsu
Well-known
since iPhone can capture photos in RAW, it has become quite decent tool for me. Please be aware that I shoot both 135, 120 and DX digital. I print a family album once a year and I am content with what iPhone can capture.
Now with an iPhone Xs Max, I think that I can leave my Nikon D60 at home more often. Only iPhone and film cameras mainly with BW films.
Now with an iPhone Xs Max, I think that I can leave my Nikon D60 at home more often. Only iPhone and film cameras mainly with BW films.
RichC
Well-known
Thanks for starting the thread!
But I totally disagree with your next statement...
There are plenty of professional photographers who now prefer smartphones to cameras. And this trend will continue as phones become more versatile (I'm especially pleased to see the latest phones have multiple lenses - including telephoto).
One such "serious photographer" is Ben Lowy, a photojournalist who was won multiple awards, made the cover of Time magazine and covered wars with his iPhone. As he says:
“At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what tool you used; the image is what counts. Getting that decisive moment, that expression on someone’s face; that’s what counts.”