35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
To OP: ask to cover the charges, minimally. ALWAYS establish compensation before any shoot. Never work for family or friends is best practice in business..
Advice needed, business with friends
- Thread starter Lauffray
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Replies 42
- Views 4K
Scrambler
Well-known
If someone approaches you to provide them with a professional/trade/business service, it's work, whether they are a friend or not.
The OP is unsure what to do, because he didn't 1) scope the project and 2) get confirmation from the client of the budget and 3) get sign-off on his quote.
It seems from the original post that this was essentially a business transaction, not an outright gift. As such, some charge seems fair to me. Low enough to be a steal and high enough to pay the OP's "costs" for food, electricity, housing...
oftheherd
Veteran
I can't advise anyone else. But the few weddings I did some 35 years ago, were all for friends except one. I tried first to discourage them. All stated they didn't have the money to hire a photographer. Obviously that was positioning them as no or minimal pay. I told them I would do it for free as my wedding gift to them, supplying all film, cameras, and expertise, but the development of the film, choice of individual photos to print and how they displayed them was then their choice. I also warned them they might be getting what they paid for.
Fortunately all were very happy with the results. But I never particularly enjoyed weddings due ot the stress of ensuring I provided a professional product they could not but be happy with.
The point being, I would tend to recommend gifting it all to them. If they want to pay after you tell them that, tell them anything they want to give is up to them but it should not exceed supply costs.
But as I said, that is what I would do. You have to decide for yourself. Just be sure you understand what you do will probably have an impact on the friendship.
Fortunately all were very happy with the results. But I never particularly enjoyed weddings due ot the stress of ensuring I provided a professional product they could not but be happy with.
The point being, I would tend to recommend gifting it all to them. If they want to pay after you tell them that, tell them anything they want to give is up to them but it should not exceed supply costs.
But as I said, that is what I would do. You have to decide for yourself. Just be sure you understand what you do will probably have an impact on the friendship.
Ranchu
Veteran
Not true. Also fun and experience. Feels good too.
...and because he feels uncomfortable asking to profit off them, his friends, like he felt earlier and didn't bring it up.
It seems that way to you, because you choose to see it that way, and here we are with semantics, yeah huh? The best solution is don't piss off your friends, and if you eat the cost of that, chalk it up to life experience. This mercenary attitude leads nowhere fast.
Well and precisely said. It's an opportunity for goodwill of for profit.
Darthfeeble
But you can call me Steve
As a lot of others have said, ask him to reimburse the cost and give them your time as a wedding gift. Business with friends is bad business.
fonzy
Newbie
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
So, you advocate slavery. That is what free work is...
Seriosly, NEVER work for friends if you wish to keep them...
Mr_Toad
Fluffy Marsupial
.
Milk him for every penny you can get!!!
After all, folks with money can always buy 'friends'.
😛
Alternatively, just tell him the truth, same as you told us...that you think it's fair for them to pay the out-of-pocket costs, but beyond that, you don't know what to charge. It'll work itself out.
.
Milk him for every penny you can get!!!
After all, folks with money can always buy 'friends'.
😛
Alternatively, just tell him the truth, same as you told us...that you think it's fair for them to pay the out-of-pocket costs, but beyond that, you don't know what to charge. It'll work itself out.
.
look at it as a learning experience.
if you value your friend, do whatever is necessary to make them happy.
chalk it up to experience, and next time learn from your mistakes.
if you are any good, there will be other weddings. If not, don't make a bad thing worse by trying to make a profit on shoddy work.
Stephen
fdarnell
Well-known
Price
Price
I would suggest that you do it for the cost of two books, one for you, one for him.
One, you say that it's something outside your comfort zone that you don't normally do and two, he's your friend. Produce the book and you will find out the real time involved with the project. Since it's outside your comfort zone, perhaps you would take longer to get it done than someone who does this professionally. If you do a great job and he loves it, you have a testimonial and a sample to go after new business that perhaps may pay more than you think. You will also take less time to do the next one and that's where the profitability will occur.
You may also find that it takes way too long, you don't like it and the work is only so-so. This will be a valuable lesson so that you won't get involved next time.
I would suspect that the first case will be true, he will be happy, you will find out what it takes to produce and the cost of the second copy as a showcase piece will be plenty of compensation.
Now, on the next one, figure all the costs to produce and your baseline minimum time up front. Double that, take 50% deposit to begin the job. If they refuse to pay at the end, you have not lost anything, just the extra profit since you have figured your baseline minimum costs up front. You are working in a no-recourse business. You can't "un-take" the photos and if you hold back delivery for non-payment, they will just sue.
Price
I would suggest that you do it for the cost of two books, one for you, one for him.
One, you say that it's something outside your comfort zone that you don't normally do and two, he's your friend. Produce the book and you will find out the real time involved with the project. Since it's outside your comfort zone, perhaps you would take longer to get it done than someone who does this professionally. If you do a great job and he loves it, you have a testimonial and a sample to go after new business that perhaps may pay more than you think. You will also take less time to do the next one and that's where the profitability will occur.
You may also find that it takes way too long, you don't like it and the work is only so-so. This will be a valuable lesson so that you won't get involved next time.
I would suspect that the first case will be true, he will be happy, you will find out what it takes to produce and the cost of the second copy as a showcase piece will be plenty of compensation.
Now, on the next one, figure all the costs to produce and your baseline minimum time up front. Double that, take 50% deposit to begin the job. If they refuse to pay at the end, you have not lost anything, just the extra profit since you have figured your baseline minimum costs up front. You are working in a no-recourse business. You can't "un-take" the photos and if you hold back delivery for non-payment, they will just sue.
Rogier
Rogier Willems
Its your friend, make it a wedding gift...
Pablito
coco frío
Reimbursement of costs only. No other choice as I see it since you did not establish the price up front.
Scrambler
Well-known
Don't get me wrong, Ranchu. I have photographed one wedding for a friend (not as the only photographer, thankfully) and will do so again. Gratis. Free. As a gift.
But "offer" and "gift" are quite different to
I agree with the second sentence - "Also fun and experience." and fun feels good, as does giving a gift.
But it is also work:
No, he said
And
That reads to me like an agreement to pay for time/professional input not just for operating expenses, because the operating expenses have already been paid for.
I think you are reading something into the OP, and into me, that isn't there. He has, perhaps unwisely in hindsight, accepted a commission a) from a friend and b) without clearly establishing the rules. He hasn't offered a gift, but now feels embarrassed to charge a full commercial rate, having worked out what it is. I don't know his circumstances, but quite possibly this is what will feed him.
Who are you to say he should fall behind in his rent in order to make a gift? Equally, who am I to say he should charge for what might well be leisure time?
I am fascinated by your repeated fixation with "profit." How are you paid? I have been, and am, a contractor. I cannot forgo payment without serious impact. If nothing else, there is the "cost" of having deferred other paid work. This colours my reading of the situation and I admit it.
That's what I've done.
But "offer" and "gift" are quite different to
Emphasis mine.
I agree with the second sentence - "Also fun and experience." and fun feels good, as does giving a gift.
But it is also work:
No, he said
And
That reads to me like an agreement to pay for time/professional input not just for operating expenses, because the operating expenses have already been paid for.
I think you are reading something into the OP, and into me, that isn't there. He has, perhaps unwisely in hindsight, accepted a commission a) from a friend and b) without clearly establishing the rules. He hasn't offered a gift, but now feels embarrassed to charge a full commercial rate, having worked out what it is. I don't know his circumstances, but quite possibly this is what will feed him.
Who are you to say he should fall behind in his rent in order to make a gift? Equally, who am I to say he should charge for what might well be leisure time?
I am fascinated by your repeated fixation with "profit." How are you paid? I have been, and am, a contractor. I cannot forgo payment without serious impact. If nothing else, there is the "cost" of having deferred other paid work. This colours my reading of the situation and I admit it.
That's what I've done.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
If your friend insists on paying you money for your time and effort (if you/he don't think that the nice dinner/wine option in sufficient), one thing you could possibly do is to work out what you'd charge a 'regular' client, then figure out a 'discounted' price for a friend. I just did some website photos for a friend who owns three clothing stores, and she did ask me up front about costs. I didn't have a specific number at the time, but I told her what I could do is to work out what I'd charge a regular client, figure out a discounted rate that we'd both be comfortable with, (anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 off, depending upon the line item), let her go over it to make sure she was okay with it, then go from there. Of course, the agreement for pay for service was understood from the outset, though we hadn't necessarily agreed on a firm price. But, we did the shoot, it was relatively quick (just over two hours), we had a nice lunch afterwards, the digital PP wasn't too horrid, they got the photos they needed for their website, and everyone was happy in the end.
Bottom line, please the client and everything else should work itself out -- particularly when that client is a friend!
Bottom line, please the client and everything else should work itself out -- particularly when that client is a friend!
kiss-o-matic
Well-known
Ask for dibs on the wedding gifts they don't really care too much for.
csxcnj
Well-known
Charge him cost of materials, printing etc. but donate your time. Let him know that part of it is your wedding gift. Maybe he'll up he payment to include covering that or some part of it.
I can't imagine charging a friend for something like that even if payment was offered. Just how good of a friend is he?
I can't imagine charging a friend for something like that even if payment was offered. Just how good of a friend is he?
jsrockit
Moderator
Jerome, I would just straight up ask him what he wants to pay. Many people do not realize how much this typically costs because people do not value a photographer's time. They think it's as easy as showing up and pushing a button. He will low ball you, but not because he's being cheap, but because he will not know any better. A few hundred for your time seems appropriate for a friend. Did you already get them a wedding gift?
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Same here: http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps weddings.html -- anything else is a lose/lose situation.
jsrockit's advice is very good too.
Cheers,
R.
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
Wow, this has really grown, thanks for all the advice everyone !
The back and forth between those saying "charge a little something" and those saying "do it for free" seems to echo the very dilemma in my head
I did yes, that's a good proposition though
It isn't that I want to profit off him because I don't do this for a living so it's not like I can't pay my bills if he doesn't pay me. That said, I'm putting a lot of my own time on the book, mainly because I want to do a good job regardless, I don't like to feel that my time is not valuable that's why I'm trying to put a price on it. I guess it's a matter of asking friends for money more than the actual amount
The back and forth between those saying "charge a little something" and those saying "do it for free" seems to echo the very dilemma in my head
I did yes, that's a good proposition though
It isn't that I want to profit off him because I don't do this for a living so it's not like I can't pay my bills if he doesn't pay me. That said, I'm putting a lot of my own time on the book, mainly because I want to do a good job regardless, I don't like to feel that my time is not valuable that's why I'm trying to put a price on it. I guess it's a matter of asking friends for money more than the actual amount
uhoh7
Veteran
Serious event photography is huge stress and a major amount of work.
Taking a few snaps at a wedding and giving them is normal. To fully document the event and put together a book?
That is huge.
Since you are afraid to bill him, I'd ask myself, what is the minimum amount with which you'd say: perfect!
Bill him that and forget about it. If he complains just tell him: pay what you think is fair.
giving him all this may well put more strain on the relationship than overcharging.
