Advice on a M4 Black Paint

[kurisu27]

Hello everyone! 

New here and I kindly want to ask for your help and or advice.

After looking around a bit for some time for a nice M4, I found recently this camera in a local store. 
It seems to be an original black paint model from 2/1971 with the serial Number 1286238. 
I searched the serial of course and things point to it being one of the later batches of black paint cameras, or so I think at least.

The thing is, it also seems to have had a small spot that has been repainted where some of the paint has fallen off, as also stated by the shop. (It’s a respectable one!). 
Now, that’s generally not a big deal for me, especially since the camera seems to be in almost mint condition otherwise. 
And that is where I started to wonder. You see, I do have a black paint MP (current model not original of course) and a good friend of mine and forum member (as far as I know haha) has an original M2, and the paint looks a bit different, or should I say, not as shiny.

We both went so see the camera today again and we really are not sure what to think of it. I’ve heard somewhere once that the on some later models of the original black paint models, around the time when they also introduced the Black Chrome ones, they changed the paint a little bit. So maybe that is the reason why it looks different. 
Another reason we thought might be the cause is that is seems to have been very rarely used?

It certainly has been serviced once, that is for sure. But has it been repainted completely maybe or just the spots? 
The camera certainly shows brass on some edges, so it can hardly be a chrome one repainted. The serial also matches as far as I know.
There are little bubble on the film advance, that also might suggest original BP correct?

I really could need some advice here on what you experts think. 
Has anyone any experience with cameras of this era?

I’ve uploaded images here:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ai2SJVrNAopN3hDUOfHU0RgjiYmk


Many thanks in advance, 
Christoph

 

[Erik van Straten]

This is a 100% original BP M4. Looks very nice.

The paint of the BP M4 is different from that of the old BP M2. The paint of the M2 often bubbles and is not as tough as the paint of the M4. The paint of the M2/M3 brasses rather quick.

The paint of the recent BP MP is also different. This paint is a very modern synthetic resin.
Due to environmental regulations older types of paint are no longer allowed on cameras etc.

Erik.

 

[John Lawrence]

I'm no expert in this (so feel free to discount my opinion), but to me something about the paint just doesn't look right compared to other black paint M4 cameras I've seen over the years.

My guess (and it is just a guess), is that it may have been subjected to a full repaint at some stage.

Is the dealer able to provide you with any details regarding the provenance of the camera? That would help considerably in resolving your concerns.

John

Edit: Found this old link to another M4 in the 1286XXX series, if it's of any help for reference:

http://www.apertureuk.com/Leica/M4-blackpaint/M4-blackpaint.html

 

[splitimageview]

Looks legit to me, never seen a repaint that looked that close to an original BP M4, and I’ve owned and handled several over the years.

There is a lot of variation in the finish depending on the usage on individual cameras. This one has had an easy life!

 

[Fraser]

I wouldn't call that a small spot, the camera is definitely not mint. Its looks like in been taken apart a few times, to me it looks like the screws have been replaced on hot shoe and the shutter speed dial, I'm no expert I'm sure Erik has seen a lot more black paint Leicas than me!

 

[John Lawrence]

This is a 100% original BP M4. Looks very nice.

Looks legit to me, never seen a repaint that looked that close to an original BP M4, and I’ve owned and handled several over the years.

Like I said, I'm no expert - but as both Erik and Splitimageview consider it to be genuine, and they seem to be knowledgeable about BP M4 cameras, it would be prudent to consider their comments rather than mine.

John

 

[Erik van Straten]

I wouldn't call that a small spot, the camera is definitely not mint. Its looks like in been taken apart a few times, to me it looks like the screws have been replaced on hot shoe and the shutter speed dial, I'm no expert I'm sure Erik has seen a lot more black paint Leicas than me!

I did not say that the camera is mint. You won't find a mint black paint camera for sale that is 45 years old. The mint ones are in the collector cabinets.

The screws in the accessory-shoe are in chrome. This is normal for a BP M4, they all have those screws.

There is some paint damage on the left corner (seen from front). It is hard to draw conclusions from this based on the pictures.

But on the whole: the camera is hardly used. The vulcanite is in perfect condition. I guess that the camera needs some service before it is put in use again.

Erik.

 

[kurisu27]

First of all thanks to all of your kind replies! To get so much good information so quickly is really awesome 🙂

Thanks to all of you for your opinion!

Generally yes, as Fraser mentioned the camera is definitely not "mint" by definition but that's kind of to be expected and does't bother me that much.

If the paint really is original, except for the repainted parts of course, I'm more than happy.

There is some paint damage on the left corner (seen from front). It is hard to draw conclusions from this based on the pictures.

But on the whole: the camera is hardly used. The vulcanite is in perfect condition. I guess that the camera needs some service before it is put in use again.

Yes, the repainted part where the original paint was damaged is of course something I worried about too. The previous owner certainly liked DIY repainting, as the camera comes with a black paint MR-4 as well which shows a small repaint job (but is otherwise also in perfect cosmetic condition).


I also agree that by the feel of it the camera has had a very easy life and has been hardly used or serviced. The Vulcanite looks original as well, compared side by side with older cameras of this age. It also feels very smooth and precise. It certainly has been serviced at some point since there is no L seal currently.
Inside of the camera is also very clean and looks almost new (compared with my M3 for reference).

So, now the question is, go for it?

Once again thanks to Erik, John, splitimageview and Fraser for the input! 🙂

Chris

 

[jonmanjiro]

So, now the question is, go for it?

The price seems quite reasonable and the shop (I recognized it from your photos hehe 😉) offers a six month warranty which they will back up, so... why not 🙂

There's also one listed in the classifieds here atm by a well known and reputable seller.

 

[kurisu27]

Again thanks for the replies and advice!

The price seems quite reasonable and the shop (I recognized it from your photos hehe 😉) offers a six month warranty which they will back up, so... why not 🙂

Haha, yes, the folks there are really a pleasure to deal with, very good store in general. Got most of my darkroom accessories from there as well 😉

Today I actually went and got the camera.
That gave me a chance of having another and more detailed look...and it worries me somehow I have to say.

Well, I must admit I am no expert at BP M4s but it kind of seems very strange.

There is some paint damage on the left corner (seen from front). It is hard to draw conclusions from this based on the pictures.

I've looked at the camera with a loupe and whatever the damage here is, it's not a damage spot which has been repaired. In fact what is seemingly happening here is that the first coat of paint is falling off and some other black coating is underneath. This is the case on several spots on the camera. The one on the finder is tiny, but there I can see that the first coat goes over into a second and duller one before this one goes to brass.

Now, this is very confusing indeed. It almost looks like whats underneath there is all over the top plate, and seems a bit like black chrome which has been overpainted.... But then again, cameras of the same batch are clearly black paint....
So could it be that it has been re-painted a couple of times?
Or is this just how this kind of paint works, in multiple coatings??

I've already contacted the store and issued my concerns. They offer me a return of the camera tomorrow, which is fortunate.

Uploaded some detail images here:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ai2SJVrNAopN3iDxlrsUxuYsw1ag

Still don't know what to make of it.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[ian_watts]

Well, I must admit I am no expert at BP M4s but it kind of seems very strange.

I've looked at the camera with a loupe and whatever the damage here is, it's not a damage spot which has been repaired. In fact what is seemingly happening here is that the first coat of paint is falling off and some other black coating is underneath. This is the case on several spots on the camera. The one on the finder is tiny, but there I can see that the first coat goes over into a second and duller one before this one goes to brass.

Now, this is very confusing indeed. It almost looks like whats underneath there is all over the top plate, and seems a bit like black chrome which has been overpainted.... But then again, cameras of the same batch are clearly black paint....

Presumably the paint that has come off on the end is from strap wear rather than "damage" as such. As for the dull black finish being underneath the black paint, how can you be sure without removing more of the paint? If the stuff used to fill the missing paint was sufficiently runny when applied it is likely to run under the exposed edges of the black paint giving the impression that it is some kind of undercoat or prior finish. My uneducated guess is that the black paint is legitimate and that the touched up areas have been done a little crudely with some non-matching paint of some kind. Provided you didn't overpay for the M4 it looks like a very desirable camera to own and use.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Chris, your camera is from the last batch of painted M4's, 286201 - 286700 in 1971, just before the appearance of the M5. The M5 in black is finished in black chrome. It is very well possible that Leitz was experimenting with black crome, so maybe they made this series of BP M4's with an undercoat of black chrome that was later painted black as a kind of experiment.

Be aware that this is purely speculation by me.

Erik.

 

[kurisu27]

Presumably the paint that has come off on the end is from strap wear rather than "damage" as such. As for the dull black finish being underneath the black paint, how can you be sure without removing more of the paint

Thanks for the comment. Yes, I generally agree with you. That was my first thinking as well. Of course I can't go on and scratch all around the camera 😉 Either I'm keeping it and it would be stupid to scratch it on purpose, or I'm going to return it. But I tried to scratch a little bit on the edges with a fingernail and it does come off and the undercoat is there as well.

Like mentioned before, I'm also really no expert on this. It could of course also be that this is just the original undercoat too now that I think about it. It's difficult to say for me, because the only other Black paint M4s I saw where either mint (on pictures) or down to brass and quite used.

Provided you didn't overpay for the M4 it looks like a very desirable camera to own and use.

Well, for a serial matching Black Paint M4 with BP Leicameter MR-4 (meter not working but probably just the battery on first looks), and the camera is mechanically like butter, I would consider it to have a very good price.
That is, if there is really no wild repainting going on.

As a camera to use it feels just awesome, you're completely right here!

Chris, your camera is from the last batch of painted M4's, 286201 - 286700 in 1971, just before the appearance of the M5. The M5 in black is finished in black chrome. It is very well possible that Leitz was experimenting with black crome, so maybe they made this series of BP M4's with an undercoat of black chrome that was later painted black as a kind of experiment.

Be aware that this is purely speculation by me.

Erik.

Again thanks Erik. Yeah, it's from a very interesting period where no-one really knows what was going on behind the doors.
This batch was actually released at the same month as the M5 pre series so yeah, who knows....

 

[ptpdprinter]

What’s the point of a black paint if it won’t brass? I thought that’s why people want them.

 

[Erik van Straten]

What’s the point of a Black paint if it won’t brass? I thought that’s why people want them.

Yes, I had the same thought. But funny, on some places the camera does brass.

Erik.

 

[Erik van Straten]

But I tried to scratch a little bit on the edges with a fingernail and it does come off

If so, then the camera is repainted.

Erik.

 

[Fraser]

Could it be the camera has had a replacement top and Leica had no black paint ones left?

 

[maddoc]

Again thanks for the replies and advice!



Haha, yes, the folks there are really a pleasure to deal with, very good store in general. Got most of my darkroom accessories from there as well 😉

Today I actually went and got the camera.
That gave me a chance of having another and more detailed look...and it worries me somehow I have to say.

Well, I must admit I am no expert at BP M4s but it kind of seems very strange.




I've looked at the camera with a loupe and whatever the damage here is, it's not a damage spot which has been repaired. In fact what is seemingly happening here is that the first coat of paint is falling off and some other black coating is underneath. This is the case on several spots on the camera. The one on the finder is tiny, but there I can see that the first coat goes over into a second and duller one before this one goes to brass.

Now, this is very confusing indeed. It almost looks like whats underneath there is all over the top plate, and seems a bit like black chrome which has been overpainted.... But then again, cameras of the same batch are clearly black paint....
So could it be that it has been re-painted a couple of times?
Or is this just how this kind of paint works, in multiple coatings??

I've already contacted the store and issued my concerns. They offer me a return of the camera tomorrow, which is fortunate.

Uploaded some detail images here:

https://1drv.ms/f/s!Ai2SJVrNAopN3iDxlrsUxuYsw1ag

Still don't know what to make of it.

Cheers,
Chris

That paint finish looks very similar to the Masa repaint M2 that I owned briefly in 2010. What about the seal of your M4?

 

[kurisu27]

Of course yes, there would be no point in a black paint camera if it doesn't brass with use!
And yes, it is interesting that in some places it does brass!

Replacement top, possible....yes, but then again, it would take a lot more for black chrome to brass if they even do. They would get dull silver first for quite some time before that wears through.

That paint finish looks very similar to the Masa repaint M2 that I owned briefly in 2010. What about the seal of your M4?

Small world Gabor, been a while since our beer, hope you had good holidays! Well, it hasn't got an L seal or any other letter we could make out (had a look with Ben the other day), so it certainly has been serviced by some 3rd party.
You've certainly also seen your share of cameras, what's your take on that?

As there is really no being sure at this point I was thinking of consulting another store with Leica expertise here for an opinion...

 

[maddoc]

How much time do you have to return the camera in case of doubt? We could meet somewhere in Tokyo and I could have a look in the coming days.

Of course yes, there would be no point in a black paint camera if it doesn't brass with use!
And yes, it is interesting that in some places it does brass!

Replacement top, possible....yes, but then again, it would take a lot more for black chrome to brass if they even do. They would get dull silver first for quite some time before that wears through.



Small world Gabor, been a while since our beer, hope you had good holidays! Well, it hasn't got an L seal or any other letter we could make out (had a look with Ben the other day), so it certainly has been serviced by some 3rd party.
You've certainly also seen your share of cameras, what's your take on that?

As there is really no being sure at this point I was thinking of consulting another store with Leica expertise here for an opinion...