Advice on companion to IIIc

[payasam]

I want to get a companion body for my IIIc and can afford only a FED or a Zorki. Which would be best? If distance from lens axis to accessory shoe is the same, I can confidently use my VIOOH finder. I'd prefer to have slow speeds but this is not absolutely essential. The same with X synchronisation: that can be added, but not so easily where I am.

 

[wlewisiii]

What are the lenses you intend to use? That will have an impact, as well, on which body is appropriate.

William

 

[Ash]

get both. they're cheap 😀

 

[w3rk5]

I'd get a Zorki 1. The one with metal collar around the lens mount.

 

[JonP]

Pay a little more and get a Zorki 3M, slow speeds, big finder, and you may be lucky and find a sync'ed one. The earlier 3 even looks like your IIIc, but is more expensive.

 

[reagan]

My companion or back-up body(s) for my Leica.III(F)s are Zorki.1s, c & d versions. No slow speeds on these fellas, but the other operations, feel and look are so close that I use them interchangibly alongside my Leicas without issue. I'm fortunate to have a couple of pretty nice working Z.1s, so I'm pretty confident in both. All four of these are sync-less.

Here's The Crew.

The RF housing on the Zorki.3 & 3M will be a little taller of course, so that will be different "distance from lens axis to accessory shoe" as you mentioned, but those would give you slow speeds. My 3 & 3M are without syncs as well.

Can't comment on the FEDs. Don't have one, but I'm sure others will jump in here to give you the skinny on those.

Good luck!

 

[physiognomy]

I'd take a look at the Nicca or Tower barnack clones... you might have to pay a little more (although I picked up one here for $100) , but in my experience they are vastly superior to the fsu cameras. They all have slow speeds & most (except the very early ones) have a flash sync.

Here are some links:

Nicca cameras (click)

Tower branded Nicca's (click)

Cheers!

Peter

ps In case you noticed, I am biassed towards these cameras.... I have a Tower type 3 & Nicca type IIIS...

 

[reagan]

I'd take a look at the Nicca or Tower barnack clones...

I would second that. Especially if you can get a couple that look like Peter's shown on the Camera & Coffee thread. Schweeeeet!! *searching for happy face icon w/drool*

 

[Gordon Coale]

I have a Leica IIIc and it's trusty companion is a Zorki 3M.

 

[payasam]

William, 35, 50 and 85 now, another 50 in a week, perhaps a faster 35 at some time. They -- and the camera body -- must go with my VIOOH without my having to remember to compensate.

Reagan, Jon, Gordon: "Feel" generally is important, because if it's the same there's less or no fumbling. The higher RF housing of the Zorki 3 and 3M will spell trouble as the VIOOH's parallax markings won't mean what they read. My impression is that at least some FED bodies were better constructed than their Zorki contemporaries.

Peter, the Tower/Nicca -- or an early Canon -- will be pricey, as you say, and for a person in India who is without direct access to sources, perhaps will be impossibly difficult to find. The same goes, multiplied many times over, for a Reid.

I am leaning, at this time, towards a FED from Oleg K, or perhaps something from Fedka.com.

[edit] ... although I do not entirely rule out a Bessa R.

 

[reagan]

My impression is that at least some FED bodies were better constructed than their Zorki contemporaries.

I've never owned a FED or even held one so can't speak from experience concerning your thoughts here. But in past threads others here with more experience than I have taken the opposite view on the FED/Zorki comparison. (A thread search might turn up some interesting reading.) ~ Cheers

 

[ZorkiKat]

Zorki-1 were as built as well as any FED-1. The Zorki and FED described in this post refer only to these models.

Some FED, the prewar ones and immediate post war ones were often truly well built.
But they have lens standardisation issues which would prevent the use of lenses other than the normal lenses found with them. The mount was M39x1metric, which was not the Leica standard of M39x1english. The lens register varied from camera to camera and was adjusted for the lens it had. Many lenses also had non-standard camming.

FED from the later production runs feel flimsy. There seems to be a lot of play in its mechanism. But none of these really affect the FED's ability to shoot. FED from this range also tend to have correct lens registers. Some lenses, despite having the Leitz thread pitch suffered from non-standard entry and stopping points. This made some lenses to mount with its scales oriented to the side or the bottom, instead of on top. I've consistently found that FED whose serial numbers run above 450XXX not only conform to the standard 28,8mm register, but also have correctly oriented thread mounts as well. I've found more FED with these features than Zorki.

Zorki on the other hand tend to be better built- the parts seem to fit and engage better- the 'play' associated with FED camera seems to be absent. Avoid the early Zorki (approx those whose SN are above 110xxx). These had soft bodies and tight film chambers which detain Kodak or Fuji factory cassettes. It is also often necessary to recalibrate Zorki cameras for other lenses.

Bear in mind that certain lenses of Leitz, Canon, or other non-soviet origin may not be used with Soviet LTM cameras. Lenses like the Leitz 35mm Summaron or Hektor 135mm, or the Canon/Serenar 85mm, 100mm, and 135mm may or may not mount because of the tongue-shaped RF coupler they used. These can also catch with the camera's RF sensor tip. This can cause serious damage to both lens and camera. Best not to use these with any FED or Zorki.

The VIOOH will work correctly on a FED or Zorki.

I don't recommend adding flash sync to the camera. The method is fairly simple, but this mutilates or defaces the camera. The place where the PC terminal can be attached with minimum fuss is the top of the camera, right over where the FED or Zorki logo is. The PC can be added next to the eyepiece or in front, right next to the lens mount. But this would involve some cutting of certain parts inside the camera- and can compromise the camera's structural integrity. Open flash firing at B/Z settings often work. Depressing the shutter button on a handheld camera for an exposure about 1/10...1/5 sec for open flash wiring doesn't really lead to
objectionable ghosting. Flash exposures are often done in situations where ambient lighting levels are too low to cause significant exposures on their own. Even when internally synched, the FED or Zorki shutter can fire only at 1/20 or 1/25 sec, not really faster than 1/10 sec or even fast enough to prevent ghosting
entirely.

 

[Aurelius]

Bear in mind that certain lenses of Leitz, Canon, or other non-soviet origin may not be used with Soviet LTM cameras. Lenses like the Leitz 35mm Summaron or Hektor 135mm, or the Canon/Serenar 85mm, 100mm, and 135mm may or may not mount because of the tongue-shaped RF coupler they used. These can also catch with the camera's RF sensor tip. This can cause serious damage to both lens and camera. Best not to use these with any FED or Zorki.

😱 I use my CV 35 Ultron, 21 and 15 and even tested the 75 mm on the Zorki 1 & 4K and the Fed 2. In what way might the lenses be damaged ...???

 

[ZorkiKat]

😱 I use my CV 35 Ultron, 21 and 15 and even tested the 75 mm on the Zorki 1 & 4K and the Fed 2. In what way might the lenses be damaged ...???

Note the different types of cams used in coupled LTM lenses. The full barrel types may be used with Zorki and FED. If the CV lenses use these types then you may use them. However, if they have one of the tongue shaped cams, these may catch on the camera's sensor sloped sensor tip.
The WA lenses you mentioned likely have the full barrel cam - tongueshaped couplers are often found on the longer lenses. The Summaron 35 has a notched portion where its coupler mates with the roller sensor found in Leica or Canon or Voitlaender cameras. This notch can catch on the FED or Zorki pointed sensors.

In very special cases, the tongue shaped coupler may actually mount in one FED or Zorki. These would be exceptions (I have two FED-1 which can use Canon 100mm lenses).

The orientation of the camera's sensor tip also determines this. The way it's oriented is dictated by the way its RF optics is constructed and this varies from camera to camera. Depending on the RF, the slope of the tip can vary: in some cameras the sharp point is outwards, in some the the slant faces out. This cannot be arbitrarily altered if the RF is to be accurate.

In FED-1, the sensor tip is tiny and tear-drop shaped. Later FED and the post FED-type Zorki used a larger eccentric-shaped tip.

When the lens mount doesn't fully agree with the accepted start and stopping points, the lens will mount with a different orientation. This doesn't matter much (other than having the scales readable from the side or bottom) with 'full barrel' couplers can still couple with, and won't catch, the camera's RF sensor tip. A tongue-shaped coupler in this situation will end up with the cam located far from the camera's RF arm, and worse, can catch with it, locking the lens on the camera. When this happens, the camera or lens will be damaged. With cameras whose backs open, the remedy is to open the back, hold the shutter open, and gently pull back the RF arm to allow the lens to rotate freely on its mount. With a bottom loader, this will almost be total disaster and will probably involve disassembly of the lens if the camera is to be saved.

Jay

 

[payasam]

Aurelius, I have used my Summaron on a friend's Zorki without trouble. Its RF cam is not a tongue but a full circle.

 

[ZorkiKat]

Aurelius, I have used my Summaron on a friend's Zorki without trouble. Its RF cam is not a tongue but a full circle.

In some intances this is possible, but its better to err on the side of safety.

The Summaron does have a full barrel coupler. Its not the coupler which causes the trouble, but its the notch in its mount. If this notch lines up (in most cases with FED or Zorki, in cameras with correctly oriented mounts, it would) with the sensor tip, it could spell trouble.

The sensor will not catch if its orientation isn't too steep. In some cases the sensor will be oriented with its gently curved side facing out. How the sensor is oriented depends on the construction of the camera's rangefinder. The sensor tip's orientation determines the ability of the rangefinder to measure accurately at close distances- it cannot just be arbitrarily positioned to accomodate just any lens. Here is an example of one camera whose sensor tip is gently sloped- and it can accomodate the Summaron:

The FED-1 used a tiny tear-drop sensor tip. Its shape is very conducive for catching and hooking into things. Just imagine how nicely it will go into the notch of the Summaron 35:

And here is an example where the rangefinder demanded that the sensor tip be oriented so that its sensor tip be sharply sloped. Yes, the Summaron got caught in this one. Lens removal wasn't much of an incident since the camera, a FED-2, had an opening back. The shutter was opened and the RF arm was pulled back to allow the lens to be unscrewed from the mount. A caught lens, if unscrewed with some force will probably turn. It will probably cause the RF sensor tip to move a bit. The sensor tip is pivoted so it can be moved for adjustments. But once it moves, its calibration is upset and will need recalibration.

 

[reagan]

Bear in mind that certain lenses of Leitz, Canon, or other non-soviet origin may not be used with Soviet LTM cameras.

I think this thread is just good info to hang on to... added to subscriptions... Thanks Jay and all contributors!

 

[Aurelius]

In some intances this is possible, but its better to err on the side of safety.

The Summaron does have a full barrel coupler. Its not the coupler which causes the trouble, but its the notch in its mount. If this notch lines up (in most cases with FED or Zorki, in cameras with correctly oriented mounts, it would) with the sensor tip, it could spell trouble.

The sensor will not catch if its orientation isn't too steep. In some cases the sensor will be oriented with its gently curved side facing out. How the sensor is oriented depends on the construction of the camera's rangefinder. The sensor tip's orientation determines the ability of the rangefinder to measure accurately at close distances- it cannot just be arbitrarily positioned to accomodate just any lens. Here is an example of one camera whose sensor tip is gently sloped- and it can accomodate the Summaron:

The FED-1 used a tiny tear-drop sensor tip. Its shape is very conducive for catching and hooking into things. Just imagine how nicely it will go into the notch of the Summaron 35:

And here is an example where the rangefinder demanded that the sensor tip be oriented so that its sensor tip be sharply sloped. Yes, the Summaron got caught in this one. Lens removal wasn't much of an incident since the camera, a FED-2, had an opening back. The shutter was opened and the RF arm was pulled back to allow the lens to be unscrewed from the mount. A caught lens, if unscrewed with some force will probably turn. It will probably cause the RF sensor tip to move a bit. The sensor tip is pivoted so it can be moved for adjustments. But once it moves, its calibration is upset and will need recalibration.

Thanks! You have done a fine job with these instructions! This was very helpful and interesting indeed.
/TBS

 

[David Murphy]

I'd take a look at the Nicca or Tower barnack clones... you might have to pay a little more (although I picked up one here for $100) , but in my experience they are vastly superior to the fsu cameras. They all have slow speeds & most (except the very early ones) have a flash sync.

Here are some links:

Nicca cameras (click)

Tower branded Nicca's (click)

Cheers!

Peter

ps In case you noticed, I am biassed towards these cameras.... I have a Tower type 3 & Nicca type IIIS...

I agree 100%. Some of the Japanese bottom loaders are better than Leica's. I had spectactular Canon III (IIIA I think it was) that I bought for $100. Expect to pay more normally $135-$175 for something decent, but you can avoid the grief caused by appalingly bad USSR quality control (e.g. light leaks, film advance failures, cheaply made parts, etc., etc.)

 

[payasam]

Thanks, all. I took the easy and safe way out. Asked Oleg K. if he could give me a body which would match the IIIc closely and whose cam follower would not get caught in the Summaron's cut-out. He went through what he had and picked out two Zorkis on his pages. I chose the $55 one, marked "very good", over the $70 one, marked "good". At least on price, the ratings are dead on. If the Summaron gets stuck, the whole lot travels to Russia.