advice request: storing images on CD

[Darthfeeble]

Be sure to get archival DVD's if you insist on going that way. JVC markets what are supposed to be the best. Standard disc media will oxidize after time. I've lost all of 2009 because I didn't know that.

 

[FrankS]

Be sure to get archival DVD's if you insist on going that way. JVC markets what are supposed to be the best. Standard disc media will oxidize after time. I've lost all of 2009 because I didn't know that.

Thanks. Here's a question based on your mention of oxidization: Do DVD's age and oxidize the same with and without data stored on them? Let's say I bought 2 disks and I copy image files onto one of them. Two years later I copy images onto the second one. Is the integrity of the data just as bad on both disks or is it worse on the first one I copied files onto?

I'm exposing my ignorance of digital image archiving here so please be gentle.

 

[Sid836]

If you store them properly you will never have any problems with them. I still have CDs dating back from 1994 that have developed no problems at all.
See here what can cause problems to your discs.

I prefer CD/DVD/Blue ray discs for long term storage. Why? Simply because a hard drive might fail from a simple mechanical or electronic failure, or get damaged if knocked hard (e.g. drop on the floor). And in that case, due to their large capacity all stored in there is gone.

 

[RichC]

I look after archival storage for our company, and we use what has been suggested here: a dual approach of hard disks (multiple copies of our files on external hard drives and in the cloud) and physical media (DVD-R).

The DVD-Rs to buy are Verbatim UltraLife Gold Archival - they're currently the best out there for reliable, long-term storage according to tests (e.g. http://www.datamate.fi/palvelut/verbatimtesti,* and are reasonably priced. Note that just because a DVD labels itself "archival" doesn't mean it is - reliability is important: Kodak Gold DVDs are marketed with a life of 100 years but they're known to be flaky - although most are long lived, too many fail after just a few months (unlike Verbatim's Ultralife - which have very few failures).

I consider Verbatim's claim of "up to 100 years" to be an honest one.

[* Actually, there is a better DVD: Syylex's glass DVD, which is pretty much indestructible. But it costs £150 ($225) per disk!]


Tips on long-term archiving

• Choose file types in common use (and will continue to be), especially if governed by official standards when possible/sensible (like TIFF). Consider using two file formats. For example, we always save graphics files as JPG and TIFF. When I'm backing up my personal photographs, I save my Raw files in their native format but also convert them to Adobe DNG (which will soon be the ISO standard Raw format - regardless of the fact that camera manufacturers will continue to ignore it for commercial reasons!).
• Always burn two copies of a DVD - it's extremely unlikely that both will fail.
• Handle and store archive DVDs carefully - here's a good overview: http://hubpages.com/technology/How-long-does-a-recordable-CD-or-DVD-last

 

[FrankS]

Thank you! I'm learning.

 

[raid]

use a back-up external drive for the external drive

use a back-up external drive for the external drive

That's why a second drive is needed for each drive used.

If you store them properly you will never have any problems with them. I still have CDs dating back from 1994 that have developed no problems at all.
See here what can cause problems to your discs.

I prefer CD/DVD/Blue ray discs for long term storage. Why? Simply because a hard drive might fail from a simple mechanical or electronic failure, or get damaged if knocked hard (e.g. drop on the floor). And in that case, due to their large capacity all stored in there is gone.

 

[sevo]

The DVD-Rs to buy are Verbatim UltraLife Gold Archival

Using gold (rather than aluminium) coated discs is a CD era recommendation - while better than nothing in that it helps against fading reflective layers, that cannot really cure the flaws of the underlying design whose main weakness is the organic substrate holding the actual information. 25 years later, a fair amount of my expensive "archival" Kodak Gold Pro Photo CDs have flaws - even if the gold layer has not faded, the organic dyes storing the information often have. And DVD is the same chemistry, at a higher density to make matters worse.

There is a DVD medium that actually was designed for archival storage: DVD-RAM - hard sectored disks (with a characteristic chequerboard pattern), which use a inorganic pigment. In simulation tests these have had upwards of ten times the longevity of the best DVD+-R types. DVD-RAM has no counterpart in CD or Blueray size. Pretty much every drive sold in the last ten years can read and write them, but write speeds are slow compared to DVD+-R, only 3x speed media (the fastest defined to be archival grade) are easily obtainable. I have been using these for a decade, and so far none have failed.

Another, more recent option are M-Discs - these use a (different) inorganic substrate, and are not hard sectored, which can be an advantage if you want to bulk copy them in the future. These exist in in DVD and Blueray format, and either can only be written on Blueray drives (which are recent enough that the M-Disc burn strategy is in their firmware), as they need a more powerful laser for writing than present in DVD drives. Proprietary standard, and a single maker, so they are expensive, and have no support by any standards body - but once written, every Blueray capable player (and many DVD ones) can play them back. The makers claim 1000 years archival storage - but even ten years would already be a respectable age compared to regular DVD+-R or BD-R discs (which already have 30% failure rates around the 5 year mark)...

 

[FrankS]

Does one need a special DVD player/burner to use these DVD-RAM discs?

 

[Mike Fish]

my MacBook backup strategy

my MacBook backup strategy

I suspect backup strategies can be nearly as contentious a topic as film vs digital. Or stand development. There are many good strategies and protocols. Some cost more, some less. Some require more work from you, some less. It's a personal choice.

I've been a MacBook user since 2009. This is what I've settled on after a few hiccups along the way. Once configured, it just works. I don't have to remember anything, or swap anything.

• MacBook Air
• Apple AirPort Time Capsule (on-site storage)
• Apple Time Machine (backup software)
• CrashPlan (cloud storage)

I have an Apple AirPort Time Capsule connected to my cable modem. This acts as my Wi-Fi base station, and provides 2TB of storage.

I use Apple's Time Machine software (included in OS X) to manage daily backups to the Time Capsule. There is other backup software available, but Time Machine and the Time Capsule work together seamlessly.

I use CrashPlan's service (Code42.com/crashplan) to backup to the cloud. There is a small monthly charge for this, but a free version is available, for which you supply the backup computer. This could be a friend or family member's computer, for example, and the CrashPlan backs up your computer to your friend's. There are other cloud storage options, but CrashPlan was well reviewed. One nice feature with CrashPlan and comparable solutions is in the event of a failure, they can send you the backup on a hard drive.

I haven't needed CrashPlan yet, but have used the Time Capsule backup several times in the past - once to restore after a hard disk died, and several times to migrate to new machines.

I'm new to digital photography so most of my backup experience is more related to business data, but this is the mantra I've adopted:

** Save your work, early and often, and backup daily. Then backup the backup.**

- Mike

 

[kxl]

Frank - do you have a free dropbox account (limit 2gb) or do you pay the annual subscription for unlimited storage? If the latter, then IMHO that would be preferable to CD's or DVD's as a redundant solution in addition to HD's.

 

[sevo]

Does one need a special DVD player/burner to use these DVD-RAM discs?

Any reasonably modern one will write 3-5x DVD-RAM - the only one I ever had that did not support them dated back to 1999 and cost a small fortune. Faster media are a different matter - but both media and drives supporting them are not available outside Japan.

 

[FrankS]

Frank - do you have a free dropbox account (limit 2gb) or do you pay the annual subscription for unlimited storage? If the latter, then IMHO that would be preferable to CD's or DVD's as a redundant solution in addition to HD's.

Free drop box, + 1 external usb hard drive, + DVD's

Sounds like soon I should be buying a second external hard drive. 🙂

 

[bmattock]

Free drop box, + 1 external usb hard drive, + DVD's

Sounds like soon I should be buying a second external hard drive. 🙂

I would. In my case, I just use hard drives that I have replaced with larger units, so I have a dozen or so 500 gb drives and about 3 or 4 1 terabyte drives. Disk drives are cheap, even for me, a notorious cheapskate. It's simple to take a raw drive and hook it up to a USB interface and plug it into the PC.

I have over 100,000 photos stored last time I checked. I keep them organized by year, month, day. I fiddle around with scripts to extract metadata (exif) and organize search by tag, but I haven't done it completely yet. A to-do for when I have more time.

Hard drives fail - that's a given. But multiple hard drives reduce the risk; the chances of two or more failing at the same time is lower, especially if they're not both online at the same time (power spikes, lightning, etc).

Ideally, I would still be following my old pattern - when I worked in Detroit and lived in NC, I would go home about twice a year and bring a hard drive with me, which I would leave behind and bring the previous one back. That way, even if my apartment building burned down, the most I could lose would be six months worth of photos and that's if I lost EVERYTHING in one location.

I no longer have that situation (happily we are all together in MI now) but I'd like to work up a similar solution again; it's the lowest possible risk level I can come up with and a) keep everything under my own control and b) on the cheap.

 

[bmattock]

I am always amazed at the trouble folks have with CD drives, I no longer back up to them, but I have many CDs from my first CD burner which came inside my Macintosh Quadra 660AV, purchased in 1994. It had a SONY burner, all the disks are perfect today. They were all SONY disks, sold by Apple under their brand.

Go figure...

I have similarly never had problem with burned CDs of any type. They all work, going back to the early days of writable CDs for me. Some have even been abused; stepped on, scratched, etc. Haven't lost a single bit yet.

I am not saying it doesn't happen or accusing anyone of lying. If they say it happened to them, I believe them. But it has never happened to me.

I do not keep my photos (or music) on CD/DVD for the simple reason that it's not economical for me, due to the size of both collections. Also because I'm far too lazy for that.

 

[FrankS]

I really appreciate all your responses, thank you!

 

[Darthfeeble]

Thanks. Here's a question based on your mention of oxidization: Do DVD's age and oxidize the same with and without data stored on them? Let's say I bought 2 disks and I copy image files onto one of them. Two years later I copy images onto the second one. Is the integrity of the data just as bad on both disks or is it worse on the first one I copied files onto?

I'm exposing my ignorance of digital image archiving here so please be gentle.

And mine. I think that it has to do with the quality of the disk and certainly storage conditions. I doubt that the act of writing makes them more susceptible to oxidation so if the batch is prone to it I would think that the unwritten disk would be a problem too. The ones that lost my data were a batch of cheapies and that's what you get with that sort of thing nearly all the time. None of the other years of storage were lost at that time and I've not checked them since about 2012. When I lost the one year, I put everything on multiple hard drives. Should a hard drive fail, they usually have the info still on them and it can be retrieved. Not cheaply however.

 

[back alley]

external hard drives seem to always be on sale someplace...don't think i've ever paid full price for one...

 

[Steve Ash]

That is my take on the topic:
https://www.synology.com/en-global/products/DS415+

Steve

 

[sevo]

I have similarly never had problem with burned CDs of any type. They all work, going back to the early days of writable CDs for me. Some have even been abused; stepped on, scratched, etc.

The odd thing is that we have abused ones around, with more than a decade of daily jingle duty, that look as if they could not play a sound any more, while others cease to play two weeks from the original broadcast. YMMV - it really depends on the individual media and burners. But where archives are concerned, we have about 20% loss on CDs after a decade, and more than 50% after twenty years. Arguably many of the latter are from a batch of Kodaks they had to recall and for which we were already compensated many years ago. With DVD-RAM and M-Disc we are still at 0% after 11 respectively 4 years (MOD and MD had barely any losses after more than twenty years - but unfortunately these are already extinct media, and most playback devices we had have already died, with no new ones available any more).

 

[Corran]

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=1140