Again with the Photographer Harrassment

[ch1]

"For us it is a matter of safety and survival - and if it means a few RF'ers get "hassled" for the greater good - well that's a small price to pay. You don't have to be a flaming "patriot" to know that there are really nasty people out there who want to do really nasty things to us!"

But those nasty people are not the ones going around taking pictures in the streets overtly. Hassling photographers is not doing one iota of good in the war against terrorism. It is a totally misspent effort.

Frank,

Today, Canada can still say that it has never sufferend an "attack of war".

Until 9/11/01 the US could also say that. Yes, there was Pearl Harbor - but at the time Hawaii was not a state. Nor was Alaska when the Japanese briefly occupied one of the Aluetian Islands.

So, you see, 9/11 has changed EVERYTHING down here. Unlike you in Canada, we no longer can feel as "safe" as we once did. So our society is still struggling with the ramifications and implication of that realization.

Mistakes will be made and many early security "measures" seem, in retrospect, to be laughably ineffective. But that's mainly because we are new at this "security" thing.

When the Brits essentially "locked down" most of London during the so-called Irish Troubles - did you ring all kinds of civil libertarian alarm bells? I can remember visiting London then and hearing the announcements at Heathrow that unattended bags would be taken out and blown up! No search for you id tag beforehand!

Here, they simply search the darned bag - they don't take it out to the firing range!

But enough. If you want to make strange bedfellows with the Libertarians, so be it. We here in NY will do what we reasonably decide we need to do to protect ourselves. And if we make mistakes, we will correct them.

But we've buried enough dead (that is, the ones we could find) and don't want to have it happen again!

 

[ch1]

a. I'm not convinced the hassling of photographers is for the greater good but rather for appearance's sake.
b. It seems a rather high price to pay, actually.

Peter

Actually, it is a very cheap price to pay since nowadays you merely make the photog delete his pics. You don't even have to reimburse him for the spent film!

 

[FrankS]

"And if we make mistakes, we will correct them."

All I am trying to do is to point out one of these mistakes: photographers are not terrorists. Stop wasting time treating them as such. Use that time and energy more effectively. Doing almost ANYTHING else would probably be more effective than hassling photographers.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

 

[BrianShaw]

Actually, it is a very cheap price to pay since nowadays you merely make the photog delete his pics. You don't even have to reimburse him for the spent film!

Who's the "you" that you refer to... and how it legal for "you" to do such a thing?

 

[ch1]

Who's the "you" that you refer to... and how it legal for "you" to do such a thing?

It depends, Brian. But these days, here - if it's a choice b/w the fotog and a member of tne NYPD blue - guess who "you" is?

I a life long NY'er. I have never, ever, ever and even ever have been hassled by a member of the NYPD for taking a picture anywhere in NYC.

So, guess what? They get the benefit of my doubt - hands down!

If any "harassed" fotog wants to litigate for being "harassed" - hey, go for it. But sorry, I am NOT going to quetion the initial encounter. We're a packed in city of 8 million plus - I don't want to get blown up because the cop backed off rather than threatened the fotog's "civil liberties"!

Besides, we're not talking NYPD-blue.

It was picking on our Urban Ranger "parkies" that was the cheap shot that started this BS. These are some of the sweetest people on earth. They maintain trails and teach folks how to forage for herbs in Central Park, tell them "please don't step on the newly seeded grass". That kind of thing.

Then they get bad-mouthed on this website by a bunch of "in your face" Libertarians!

What a crock! These are dedicted parkie kids that a blusterer here provoked to create a troll opportunity!

 

[peterc]

So, you see, 9/11 has changed EVERYTHING down here. Unlike you in Canada, we no longer can feel as "safe" as we once did. So our society is still struggling with the ramifications and implication of that realization.

George, I remember the October Crisis of 1970 when Canada was under martial law and there were soldiers and tanks in the streets. Curfews were strictly enforced as Quebec nationalism came to a violent head. Civil liberties were suspended as FLQ terrorists were rounded up. Once they were in custody (or shipped off to live in Cuba which had bankrolled their effort to take Quebec out of the country by force) things returned to normal. Those former terrorists (the ones who went to Cuba returned) have done their time and are now productive members of society.
In June 1985, terrorists bombed an Air India flight, killing 330 people ... most of them Canadians. Taken that Canada has 1/10th the population of the U.S., that was our 9/11 ... at least on a per capita kill rate by terrorists. Parts of that case are still winding their way through our court system two decades later.
Terrorists are out there and occasionally they will succeed in killing people. However, the toll they take pales when compared to cancer, flu, hunger, traffic deaths and hangun violence.
A society where people are so afraid that police waste their time questioning photographers, or wearers of joke t-shirts, only means the terrorists have won.

Peter

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Yet another episode of the George show in which the rest of us are informed by his benificent wisdom.

 

[ch1]

George, I remember the October Crisis of 1970 when Canada was under martial law and there were soldiers and tanks in the streets. Curfews were strictly enforced as Quebec nationalism came to a violent head. Civil liberties were suspended as FLQ terrorists were rounded up. Once they were in custody (or shipped off to live in Cuba which had bankrolled their effort to take Quebec out of the country by force) things returned to normal. Those former terrorists (the ones who went to Cuba returned) have done their time and are now productive members of society.
In June 1985, terrorists bombed an Air India flight, killing 330 people ... most of them Canadians. Taken that Canada has 1/10th the population of the U.S., that was our 9/11 ... at least on a per capita kill rate by terrorists. Parts of that case are still winding their way through our court system two decades later.
Terrorists are out there and occasionally they will succeed in killing people. However, the toll they take pales when compared to cancer, flu, hunger, traffic deaths and hangun violence.
A society where people are so afraid that police waste their time questioning photographers, or wearers of joke t-shirts, only means the terrorists have won.

Peter

Peter,

The FLQ and Air India were "domestic terrorist actions" (although Air India took place over international waters - off the Irish coast I beliefve?) and are more akin to Oklahoma City than 9/11. And, as you know, the Air India incident was perpetrated against a specific group in Canada.

9/11 was an act perpetrated by foreign elements and was intended to be a random act of mass terror. The perpetrators have declared that it is merely one act of which there will be more.

The reality is that our police DO NOT waste their time questioning photographers. This is all a bunch of BS concocted by a troll with a very different agenda from what you are thinking.

As I mentioned, in thirty five years of shooting pics all over NYC, I have never, ever, ever, nor even ever been questioned by a police officer. Nor do I know anyone who has.

I'm also mature and saavy enough not to go "in your face" confrontational with anyone who may be acting under the "color of authority". And I sure as heck don't single out some poor Park Ranger for abuse in order to make an issue that will let me get a rise out of the RFF crowd!

We're talking about some clown here going and dissin' some kid wearing a Smokie the Bear hat in Central Park!

THAT IS WHAT HE DID! HE PICKED ON A "PARKIE"!

Two threads and growing - all because some poor Parkie didn't what his picture taken!

 

[ch1]

Yet another episode of the George show in which the rest of us are informed by his benificent wisdom.

Bob,

There is really no reason for you to respond to any of my posts. This is the only one of yous I will bother with anymore.

Go play with your godzilla toy.

Remember, as you said, I'm simply a female dog.....

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Remember, as you said, I'm simply a female dog.....

I think you have said it best.

I was going to settle for cow

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Oh wait I'm sorry - Super Liberal

 

[RJBender]

I don't mind you taking my photo, if you ask first. If you don't, I guess I don't have a choice but to deal with it but I won't like it...

Hmmm... I wonder how effective a dog cam would be? 😀

R.J.

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Go play with your godzilla toy.

At least I have one.

 

[nwcanonman]

It's only ineffective if no one is caught but catch just one person with a bomb and it's all worth it!

........................................
Would I give up my constitutional rights for the possibility of catching one bomber?
HELL NO !
That's what Sadam had, absolute security, by virtue of dictatorship. I'll take liberty, with all it's short-comings, anytime. Do you want to have to register your cameras and get permission as to when and where you're allowed to take photos? A prison cell is pretty secure too, no cameras allowed.
Let 'em try it.

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

Stay tuned for George's latest hits.

 

[RJBender]

We're talking about harrassing photographers going about their business overtly. If a terrorist needed a picture (what for, I don't know) of something they could do it covertly easily with a camera phone, or one of the Minox spy cameras!

Exactly!

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

Really, not a whole lot. I wandered into Washington Square Park last Sunday around 2 p.m. Took some photos, and saw these two park rangers talking to a citizen, looked like they were giving directions. I was about 20 feet away, and I framed up a shot with my Yashica Lynx 14. One of the officers stopped me and said "Excuse me, sir." I looked at him and he said "I didn't give you permission to take my photograph." I thought about it - he was right, he hadn't. But then again, I didn't need it, either. I lowered the camera (after all, the shot was lost, no point in continuing) and walked over to the pair of them.

I asked if there was a law that I was unaware of that restricted photography in the park.

The first cop volunteered that I needed his permission to take his photo, or he'd arrest me if I kept trying. I could take a photo of anything or anyone else, he said.
The second cop hurredly explained that his partner "had a thing about having his picture taken." I replied that a) I was not going to take his photo, but b) since he was a public official in a public place, I was well within my rights to take his photo and there was not much he could do about it, let alone arrest me.

He said "I don't like people to take photos of me" and I said it sucked to be him, since as a public official, he had selected a career path that made him a public official and protected even less than the average citizen by privacy laws.

At that point, the second officer told me that they both understood I had a perfect right to take the first officer's photo, but it was time for me to leave now. I wished them both a good day and departed.

That's it. Nothing much. I suspect that some cops are not used to having people not just immediately do what they demand. I respect the cops and the dangerous job they do. I don't give them carte blanche to walk all over my rights in order to do it.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

So one threatens to arrest you, then both say you're correct and tell you to leave.
Are you going to file a complaint?

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

What is needed is a booklet of laws to send to police departments🙁

... and better stealth cameras for street shooters. 😀

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

Stay tuned for George's latest hits.

Come on, Bob. You know the rules about insults and threads being moved by the mods. 🙂

R.J.

 

[Fedzilla_Bob]

I know, I figure George will do the job for me.